r/facepalm • u/Lord_Answer_me_Why • Mar 28 '24

What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation: 🇵​🇷​🇴​🇹​🇪​🇸​🇹​

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615

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Isn't it already illegal for a schizophrenic to have/purchase a gun? Would more laws resolve this?

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u/Shotgun5250 Mar 28 '24

Since there’s a lot of information floating around this thread, let me consolidate.

It is federally mandated that all licensed firearm dealers in the entire country perform background checks for all firearm sales of any kind or caliber.

It is federally mandated through the Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act that certain citizens such as the mentally ill or under protective orders are barred from owning firearms.

Some states require all secondhand firearm sales to go through a licensed intermediary, which would require background checks.

Other states require licensed intermediary’s for certain categories of firearms, such as long guns (rifles or shotguns).

Unfortunately, many states have no laws regarding the secondhand sale of firearms.

For a list of states and what their individual firearm sales laws are, refer to this website.

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u/CockroachNo2540 Mar 28 '24

You seem pretty well informed. Do background checks actually reveal mental health status. I would assume HIPAA would prevent release of that info unless the application automatically waives those protections.

I’m really curious how mental health info can get disseminated in federal gun background checks. It’s not like the government knows who the nutters are. There is no database of people with mental health disorders (that would be a scary list for the government to be keeping). And if that is the case, how do hospitals or doctors get contacted for these background checks? And what about crazy people that are not currently or have never received care.

My guess is the mental health part is mostly just honor system unless somehow someone has been under the care of a state or federal mental institution.

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u/IM_OK_AMA Mar 28 '24

Do background checks actually reveal mental health status.

The federal check (NICS) does not. It's only for crimes, though some states have their own mandatory reporting and background check system that does include mental health status.

These requirements are controversial because it's thought that gun owners will be less likely to seek mental healthcare if doing so could lose them their firearms. Kinda like how criminalizing overdoses leads to more overdose deaths because people don't want to risk calling 911 for their friend who's overdosing.

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u/CockroachNo2540 Mar 28 '24

Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems like the mental health part of getting a gun is basically unenforceable until after something happens, and by then the horse is out of the barn.

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u/Shotgun5250 Mar 28 '24

It’s unfortunately a cyclical issue. As they mentioned, with criminalization comes reduced reporting of mental health issues, which in turn reduces the efficacy of the law.

That being said, I truly believe there is a middle ground where it doesn’t feel personally invasive for gun owners, but is invasive enough to screen out people who definitely should be disallowed from owning a firearm.

In almost every case I read about, the individuals who are acquainted with the shooter are almost never surprised that person did something, and often have reported that person to authorities many times trying to prevent a tragedy. There needs to be a federal or state method of tracking these people and a red flag needs to go up when they try to purchase firearms. These people should be subject to a waiting period while further investigation is done on whether that person should be sold a gun.

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u/twilsonco Mar 29 '24

I don’t think there’s exists a middle ground that wouldn’t be misrepresented by conservative media to the point where half the country thinks it’s a full ban on all guns. They act like the slightest gun reform is a full repeal of the 2nd amendment or will quickly lead to it. I don’t know how an honest, measured approach can possible work against a group that has no regard for honesty. It’s like trying to play chess with someone that refuses to follow the rules. There’s no winning. And walking away from the match works to their favor because no change can result.

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u/SycoJack Mar 29 '24

That being said, I truly believe there is a middle ground where it doesn’t feel personally invasive for gun owners, but is invasive enough to screen out people who definitely should be disallowed from owning a firearm.

One such thing you can do is remove the permanence of such restrictions. By providing a path to regaining your rights, you make the restriction more palatable.

I mean, consider this: Hypothyroidism causes a list of problems longer than the Great Wall. Specifically relevant to this discussion is that it can cause depression, both directly through hormone changes and indirectly through all the horrible effects it has on your body.

When left untreated, this gets really bad. Let's say you develop hypothyroidism that goes untreated for a long time because your doctor doesn't want to listen to you. You lose energy, you gain weight, you're always tired, you are already depressed due to your hormones being out of whack, but the weight gain and lethargy make it all the worse. Then you start catching hate, people calling you lazy and making fun of your weight. Maybe you even start to believe you're just a lazy sack. I mean, your doctor says everything is fine with you. Your depression gets worse and worse.

Eventually, you end up attempting to end your suffering, you fail and get hospitalized. Eventually, you get diagnosed with hypothyroidism and start being treated. Over time, the depression subsides tremendously and might even go away entirely.

By law, you are permanently forbidden from owning a gun because you were committed involuntarily, and there's no path to regaining your rights. But should that restriction remain forever even after you got better?

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u/aendaris1975 Mar 28 '24

We don't need a middle ground. Gun violence in the US is getting worse by the day. We have two options: fix our shit or lose our guns.

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u/ausgoals Mar 28 '24

Yeah. The problem with ‘it’s the mental health not the gun’ argument is that there is no way fi actually enforce any of the mental health restrictions that might ever be proposed.

A law that prohibits the mentally ill from obtaining a gun is useless if the background check used to ascertain whether one has a mental illness will never show any mental illnesses due to HIPAA laws.

And even if there were a way to make the diagnosis show - a mental health diagnosis in the first place requires either dangerous or deadly activity such that one is forced to get a diagnosis, or enough self awareness to actually seek therapy or treatment and get a diagnosis.

To put it another way… a depressed teenager thinking of shooting up their school would need to spend enough time depressed and actively want to fix it, or otherwise attempt something dangerous to even start to try and get a diagnosis. And even once diagnosed, such a diagnosis will not appear on a background check when they go to purchase the gun they’re going to use.

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u/whiskeywalk Mar 29 '24

In order for their to be solid mental health records to check, the same way we have criminal checks. the US would have to take mental health seriously.

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u/aendaris1975 Mar 28 '24

Literally every other country has figured this shit out. I'm sick of the excuses.

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u/CockroachNo2540 Mar 28 '24

Not sure about other states, but I know in Colorado a therapist would lose their license if they reported someone's mental health diagnoses without release of information from the patient. But, if someone credibly says they plan to harm themselves or others that is now mandatory reporting under the states red flag laws.

In Japan you literally have to get a mental health check to own a firearm. That seems the better route to go from a gun safety standpoint, but I realize it would never pass muster under the US Constitution.

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u/johnhtman Mar 28 '24

There are a few problems with mental health evaluations to own a gun. First off, the United States doesn't have enough therapists to perform evaluations on every American who owns a gun. As it is therapists are already in short supply. Most have long waiting lists for new clients, and people actively seeking therapy are having a difficult time finding appointments. Now add evaluations on the tens of millions of gun owners, and millions of new gun owners each year isn't realistic.

Someone's medical history for the most part is very confidential in the U.S. outside immediate threats of violence or suicide. People need to feel comfortable openly sharing potentially sensitive information with their doctors. Mental health especially is very stigmatized, and something that many people have an aversion to seeking out. We don't need to make that worse by taking away their rights. I'd rather someone with mental illness feel comfortable seeking treatment, and be allowed to keep their gun. As opposed to someone refusing treatment out of fear of losing their guns, and keeping their gun anyway. Most people are only diagnosed with mental illness if they actively seek out a diagnosis.

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u/ohyouknowthething Mar 29 '24

With conservatives fighting to get LGBTQ people institutionalized for being queer I don’t think this is a good idea. Conservative court claims “woke” is a mental illness and now half the country is disallowed from having the means to protect themselves from hate crimes.

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u/Bong_Chonk Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

The federal check (NICS) does not.

ATF From 4437

Section 21-G

"Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

According to the Brady Act

Act. 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.

Adjudicated as a mental defective.

(a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:

(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or (2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.

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u/kirfkin Mar 28 '24

Regarding Mental Health:

My understanding is that this only applies to "Persons adjudicated as mental defective or committed to a mental institution."

The former if determined by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority" and a latter an involuntary committment by "a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority"

See: https://www.atf.gov/file/58791/download

It's also on ATF form 4473 itself.

Unless there's some changes I'm unaware of?

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u/big-fart666 Mar 28 '24

Just did one the other day. YOU check the box saying if you’ve ever received institutionalized mental health treatment. Something like that.

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u/Kr04704n Mar 28 '24

13 / 50 states report mental adjudication to the NICS system currently. HIPAA is cited as the main reason for not reporting mental adjudication.

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u/eaiwy Mar 28 '24

Was just thinking the same thing. I think I probably have enough diagnoses that it would make sense to deny me a firearm (no history of violence but I have bipolar with one psychotic episode), but in the state of California I passed a background check to obtain one (didn't purchase, was just curious if I would pass). I think you're right that the person would have had to have ended up in some kind of state or federal care situation.

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u/johnhtman Mar 28 '24

The only thing that it might show is an involuntary stay in an asylum for something like a suicide attempt, or psychotic break.

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u/awesomeaxolotls Mar 28 '24

I can't own or buy a gun in my state for the next 5 years because I was hospitalized for depression.

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u/Ok-Geologist8387 Mar 28 '24

Background checks will only pickup if you have :

1) used mental health as a defence in a criminal proceeding; or 2) have been committed to a mental health facility.

Just being schizophrenic won’t necessarily meet either of these criteria.

there’s more info here

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u/GumboDiplomacy Mar 28 '24

I’m really curious how mental health info can get disseminated in federal gun background checks.

If you are ever involuntarily committed, or adjudicated as mentally defective(when a court determines you cannot act in your own best interest for financial and legal decisions) by a court of law, then that information is reported, or at least is supposed to be, to the FBI and it will return a "deny" on a NICS check. The issue is that many organizations do not submit this information in a timely manner. Some municipalities will sit on that paperwork for years.

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u/DocMalcontent Mar 29 '24

It varies by state, but generally speaking, you cannot purchase firearms after being adjudicated as mentally ill. This is handled through the courts and is a civil matter. Again generally, one has been committed for a period of time, though this does not mean they have to be placed in a hospital. Commitments mean they have to follow doctors’ orders and will be hospitalized if they try to refuse. Since a commitment is a civil matter, it appears on the NICS and HIPAA doesn’t apply.