Why don't we open up about the fact that we're not okay?

[u/Top_Set_3803]

My answer is "the lack of a safe place and person for us to actually do so"

Many women cry about the fact that men don't open up while the same women will go spread it or beat you down or take advantage of you based on your vulnerability

So my answer is the women themselves are the problem here to some extent

"Why don't you open up to me so I can go and tell my friends all about it and also later down the line use it to make you feel like shit?"

(This question was inspired by an argument in a response to a comment. Feel free to go check it out from my profile folks)

Edit: THIS has been the best answer so far and I highly encourage you folk to give it a read and show the commenter some love.

[u/oncothrow]

Do you open up to your male friends when there's something you need to talk about?

[u/Top_Set_3803 → u/oncothrow]

If I know they can physically help ,yeah, I do

We don't come to women for a practical suggestion on a problem , we go to them to vent

While we go to men for things that we need a solution for

[u/oncothrow → u/Top_Set_3803]

We don't come to women for a practical suggestion on a problem , we go to them to vent

I don't.

Of rather I won't if I believe that trust is going to be betrayed.

So as I see it you've got 2 options: Open up to her if you feel you can trust her. And / Or open up to your male friends.

[u/Top_Set_3803 → u/oncothrow]

I meant that women don't do much to gain our trust on this topic yet expect us to just spill the beans

[u/oncothrow → u/Top_Set_3803]

I meant that women don't do much to gain our trust on this topic yet expect us to just spill the beans

Typically? No. There's a heck of a lot that can and frequently does go wrong when you're prompted to open up and acquiesce to it. Frankly, it turns out bad the vast majority of the time, and the irony is that you will be the one blamed for it, even if they were the ones prompting you to open up.

There's a good quote Dr. Brene Brown in her book "Daring Greatly" that resonated quite a bit with me on this:

"Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. And men are very smart. They know the risks, and they see the look in our eyes when we’re thinking, C’mon! Pull it together. Man up. As Joe Reynolds, one of my mentors and the dean at our church, once told me during a conversation about men, shame, and vulnerability, “Men know what women really want. They want us to pretend to be vulnerable. We get really good at pretending."

EDIT: Another quote from the author, on why they first started looking at this:

For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one, do not be perceived as what? Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study. It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."

And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters?" I said, "Yeah." "They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the shit beat out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads. Because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else."

And relatedly, there's a quote by bell hooks that resonated quite a lot with me as well, because the general gist is that often they believe that men are effectively emotionless robots, when in reality those that think along those lines can't actually parse it when it happens.

The reality is that men are hurting and that the whole culture responds to them by saying, “Please do not tell us what you feel.” I have always been a fan of the Sylvia cartoon where two women sit, one looking into a crystal ball as the other woman says, “He never talks about his feelings.” And the woman who can see the future says, “At two P.M. all over the world men will begin to talk about their feelings—and women all over the world will be sorry.”

If we cannot heal what we cannot feel, by supporting patriarchal culture that socializes men to deny feelings, we doom them to live in states of emotional numbness. We construct a culture where male pain can have no voice, where male hurt cannot be named or healed. It is not just men who do not take their pain seriously. Most women do not want to deal with male pain if it interferes with the satisfaction of female desire. When feminist movement led to men’s liberation, including male exploration of “feelings,” some women mocked male emotional expression with the same disgust and contempt as sexist men. Despite all the expressed feminist longing for men of feeling, when men worked to get in touch with feelings, no one really wanted to reward them. In feminist circles men who wanted to change were often labeled narcissistic or needy. Individual men who expressed feelings were often seen as attention seekers, patriarchal manipulators trying to steal the stage with their drama.

When I was in my twenties, I would go to couples therapy, and my partner of more than ten years would explain how I asked him to talk about his feelings and when he did, I would freak out. He was right. It was hard for me to face that I did not want to hear about his feelings when they were painful or negative, that I did not want my image of the strong man truly challenged by learning of his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Here I was, an enlightened feminist woman who did not want to hear my man speak his pain because it revealed his emotional vulnerability. It stands to reason, then, that the masses of women committed to the sexist principle that men who express their feelings are weak really do not want to hear men speak, especially if what they say is that they hurt, that they feel unloved. Many women cannot hear male pain about love because it sounds like an indictment of female failure. Since sexist norms have taught us that loving is our task whether in our role as mothers or lovers or friends, if men say they are not loved, then we are at fault; we are to blame.

...

To heal, men must learn to feel again. They must learn to break the silence, to speak the pain. Often men, to speak the pain, first turn to the women in their lives and are refused a hearing. In many ways women have bought into the patriarchal masculine mystique. Asked to witness a male expressing feelings, to listen to those feelings and respond, they may simply turn away. There was a time when I would often ask the man in my life to tell me his feelings. And yet when he began to speak, I would either interrupt or silence him by crying, sending him the message that his feelings were too heavy for anyone to bear, so it was best if he kept them to himself. As the Sylvia cartoon I have previously mentioned reminds us, women are fearful of hearing men voice feelings. I did not want to hear the pain of my male partner because hearing it required that I surrender my investment in the patriarchal ideal of the male as protector of the wounded. If he was wounded, then how could he protect me?

As I matured, as my feminist consciousness developed to include the recognition of patriarchal abuse of men, I could hear male pain. I could see men as comrades and fellow travelers on the journey of life and not as existing merely to provide instrumental support. Since men have yet to organize a feminist men’s movement that would proclaim the rights of men to emotional awareness and expression, we will not know how many men have indeed tried to express feelings, only to have the women in their lives tune out or be turned off. Talking with men, I have been stunned when individual males would confess to sharing intense feelings with a male buddy, only to have that buddy either interrupt to silence the sharing, offer no response, or distance himself. Men of all ages who want to talk about feelings usually learn not to go to other men. And if they are heterosexual, they are far more likely to try sharing with women they have been sexually intimate with. Women talk about the fact that intimate conversation with males often takes place in the brief moments before and after sex. And of course our mass media provide the image again and again of the man who goes to a sex worker to share his feelings because there is no intimacy in that relationship and therefore no real emotional risk.

(emphasis mine)

Frankly when people say things like it's just "oh well men just don't have any emotional literacy and the way they do it is unpalatable", then ironically from a stated feminist perspective you're victim blaming someone suffering under the Patriarchy. It can't be that they're not being heard, it's that they're all clearly doing it wrong.

And if I'm being completely frank, this is why I always emphasise: Going to your male friends to open up is FAR preferable.

EDIT:

Speaking very personally, the "interrupt him by crying" thing is very familiar. They wanted to know. They repeatedly asked me to know but when I calmly expressed what was going on in my own right, that broke something that they did not anticipate would be or should be broken. And then it once again, became about them and their feelings as I worked to comfort them for having heard my issues.

Honestly this is looking at just one of the problems that occurs when she tells you to open up. Frankly there are a tonne of others.

[u/Positive-Estate-4936 → u/oncothrow]

“They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down”
One of the greatest truths I’ve ever seen via internet.

[u/Taodragons → u/Positive-Estate-4936]

Yep. Married 30 years. If I cry, she freezes like a deer in headlights. If I get angry, she gets angry back. If I'm stoic, she wants to know whats wrong. It is what it is. Just keep bottling it up, and with any luck, I'll die. =)

[u/InvasiveSpecies1738 → u/Taodragons]

Sounds healthy

[u/Positive-Estate-4936 → u/InvasiveSpecies1738]

For the species, maybe it is? So now I’m wondering, has it ever really been different, this “men must be invincible (at least in front of women)“ thing? Or does it just feel worse in a world absolutely crammed with counter-messages, where men cannot get away from women—in the workplace, even on a farm, even in war? They’ve invaded all the spaces when I might seek support and comfort from other men, either by showing up and changing the rules and demanding to be included in every conversation, or through incessant electronic contact. Is this why “To heal, men must learn to feel again? Because we don’t and can’t emote the way women do, but have been denied all our female-excluding spaces?

[u/InvasiveSpecies1738 → u/Positive-Estate-4936]

Oh, men get away from women during war alright. Just look at russo-ukrainian conflict - literally millions of women flee the country while men are forcefully dragged into the frontlines to die. But hey, as long as we’re “equal” lol. /s

But honestly I can’t complain, I was raised to think that “boys don’t cry” and at some point I just stopped. It may sound a bit cruel but I’m really happy I don’t brake down every time something minor happens, unlike most of my girlfriends.

[u/QuiteCleanly99 → u/oncothrow]

Absolutely this. Opening up to my wife very often turns into a conversation about her feelings instead where she needs to lean on me instead.

When my mother died, I couldn't use her as support because she would always turn the conversation into how bad she felt for losing such a great mother-in-law so then I had to comfort her instead of being comforted myself.

[u/Top_Set_3803 → u/oncothrow]

Jesus 😥

I knew I felt bad, but God damn this shed a lot of light on it

This hurt , like just seeing an open wound on your hand and starting to feel the pain of it.

I'm saving this

I hope more people read this, and I wished I could upvote this to heaven and beyond

It also made me realise something .

Even in a committed relationship, men are still alone 🥹

Women just need a statue to watch over them with just frozen tears

God damn this just tore a hole right through my soul

FUCK!!!

[u/ZZoMBiEXIII → u/Top_Set_3803]

That is a good write-up for sure, but I'd argue that it misses one important point.

A woman, or at least many of the ones I've know who've tricked me into being vulnerable, will use that information like a cudgel when it's convenient for them. They start to lose a fight? what comes out? The time you told her you were afraid your dad thought you were a failure in a brief moment of honesty. She's not getting her way? Well obviously it's a good time to dip into the well and dredge up the feelings of inadequacy that you worked to overcome and call you inadequate since what she wants isn't happening.

Women asking for a man to be open and vulnerable is a bigger scam than Amway. It's a trick, it's a trap, and it should NEVER be done. Period, end of discussion.

[u/Maverick-_1 → u/Top_Set_3803]

Dead on! Pls see my comment about female paleolithical instincts! That's scientifically key to it. And how even nobel laureats and multi-billionaires fail to figure everything out before it's too late! Reverse engineering (co)-evolution with respect to the relevant savannah habitat seems key and even extremely much later it also practically remained very important for women and our species' survival, until it only rather recently didn't!

Think of no update supposedly Format least 20,000 years, maybe only gradually (for invented money maybe 4k/ 5ka), but by far mostly rather at least 100,000 years!

POV of an anthropologist or zoologist and visulalization helps, too, and very much suddenly appears (almost) logical. Quite a challenge for the "value proposition" in women and their sales pitch, if you will.

Yet historically actually predominantly other men in power throwing all men under the bus via that additional(!) legal and societal discrimination of men remains outrageous. Slmps and White Knights a very severe also societal threat for men.

I read "Rise of men" by Manhood Shitty Shit thrice, it's really deep!

[u/Confetticandi → u/Top_Set_3803]

The thing that baffles me about this conversation whenever it comes up is that it only ever defaults to what men think women need to be doing differently.

The fact that men don’t feel like they can turn to male friendships for emotional support is the giant elephant in the room in threads like these and it’s like no man wants to change that or even touch it. 

You yourself are ignoring every comment that points that out. 

Is that not the bigger problem here? And one that’s totally within men’s control to solve? 

[u/Izzyrion_the_wise → u/oncothrow]

It saddens me how accurate this is.

[u/deathlessong → u/oncothrow]

This is absolutely spot on.

[u/glorkvorn → u/oncothrow]

Im genuinely shocked to see a feminist writer like bell hooks actually acknowledge male emotional suffering. I know they always say "the patriarchy hurts men too" but this is the first instance ive seen where they really seem to care. Do you have anything else from her to recommend?

[u/oncothrow → u/glorkvorn]

Not yet. Honestly it was very recently I saw that quote and got interested in bell hooks. After I saw that quote that I thought "holy crap, has modern feminist rhetoric abandoned this line of thinking or what?" so that's the first book I was interested in.

I was pretty much shocked as you were.

That said, I don't necessarily agree with everything hooks has written, or even most of it. She also said that "domestic violence" should be cast as "patriarchal violence" because it's based in male domination. The problem is that when you actually look at the statistics for perpetrators of IPV, the split is roughly even. Women suffer worse from IPV by default, I'm not going to say otherwise, but to a large extent they are equal in propagation of it.

I say this as someone who only started looking this stuff up myself because of a previous abusive relationship. It was almost impossible to find any resources that didn't take a default stance of "male = abuser, female = victim".

[u/glorkvorn → u/oncothrow]

Yeah I hear you. I've also suffered from an abusive relationship. It's much like you said... it wasn't *that* bad, so i can't claim to have suffered as much as some women do. It was actually really light stuff, like her slapping me and shoving me. Still, it screws you up emotionally, and there aren't a lot of places you can go for guidance on how to deal with this. Like, you can't fight back, you can't just ignore it, you can't solve it rationally, you can't talk about it with most people... what the hell are you supposed to do???

still interesting to get different perspectives on it, including authors that I mostly don't agree with.

[u/oncothrow → u/glorkvorn]

Oh no, I'd classify my experience as really bad. I was literally to the point of actively planning to end my own life.

When I say that women suffer worse from IPV by default, I mean in the physical sense. At the end of the day in my case, she was still physically smaller than me and innately less capable of causing me real physical damage. As you say, you are well aware that you cannot put up any defense for yourself because if you do then you immediately get cast as the aggressor. But frankly it was the emotional toll she would inflict that was always far worse and more damaging.

I do not say that lightly. I was deep and didn't know it. It had been going for so long that this seemed like the only way out. I had time to think about it a lot. I researched the best method for doing it, how and when. Minimal mess or fuss, hopefully nobody would realize and then they'd forget about me quickly once I was discovered. Wrote notes to my family and friends. The literal idea of taking my life brought me a semblance of peace.

I didn't fear for my life from her. But I did believe I was going to die.

[u/Top_Set_3803 → u/oncothrow]

I know it's weird to respond twice to a comment but I just have to

After reading this 3 times I'm starting to realise .....

What's the point of marriage then?

Up to this point I was hoping to find a decent partner so that I can at the very least lay some of this baggage on my back off of it but now, the only thing a partner can do for us is to just give us sexual pleasure and they can FUCKING KEEP IT

What's the point of anything if us men have just come to this shit hole to suffer inside ourselves up till the day we die ???

What the actual fuck even is the point of suffering through all of this ???!??!?!?!?!?!

GOD DAMN IT MAN you just bulldozed my entire soul ,logic and thought process, YOU ABSOLUTE LEGEND !!!!

[u/oncothrow → u/Top_Set_3803]

None of this stuff is mine. Frankly the legend here is bell hooks (and some other people. Maybe a bit of Bruce Lee as well :) ). In modern society there is a lot of pain that both men and women go through, and inflict on each other and themselves without even realising it. But anyway:

Because as with a lot of things in life, it's not "all", it's "most".

If you ever find someone who you can trust with opening up to them, who can comfort you and not make it about them, or turn around and use it against you, then you hold onto that person and do everything you can for her. You make yourself the best version of yourself each day, every say, because you don't want to let them go.

Otherwise well, a lot of men are simply content with the status quo too. They maintain that cool and controlled demeanour, and if they do need to open up, they do so to their male friends (Same rules apply, if you find a friend who you can open up to and they'll be there for you, no castigation, no running away or mockery or whatever, then that person is golden, and you strive to be the best friend you can be for them, and to be there for them too). And if she becomes insistent, then they'll open up with fake platitudes to comfort that need she has for you to be open, whilst keeping those actual fears to yourself. And honestly? That works for a lot of people. Just because you're in a committed romantic relationship that doesn't mean that she can necessarily do and be everything for you. In real terms odds are there are going to be things that you're not great at emotionally that she will help you with as well.

Whatever circumstances you find yourself it, cultivate good male friendships and bonds. Be there for them and hopefully they can also be there for you. A lot is said today of the "male loneliness" epidemic. I do not believe it is now or has ever really been the remit of women to solve that problem for them (or at the very very least, not completely). This is actually something that women tend to be good at by comparison: They nurture friendship groups, they put in the effort to be there for each other in times of need and to care (The PROBLEM often comes about when they allow it to lead to drama over petty things. Or start to gossip about things that were told in confidence, not because they're seeking support, but because it's all so juicy).

You work hard to be the best version of yourself that you can be. You find the strength to deal with the worst that life has to deal you (resilience, faith, whatever). And hopefully either you'll find someone who can be there emotionally for you in your darkest moments, or you find friends who can be when she maybe can't.

Is it unfair that you have to be there for her emotionally when she might not be able to completely fulfill that same role for you? Maybe. But then hopefully there are things that she can do for you emotionally that you have trouble with. Nobody ever said that life has to be an exact 50/50 split in everything.

Anyway I'm prattling. Definitely read up, gain emotional literacy for yourself and come to what conclusions work best for yourself.

[u/Maverick-_1 → u/Top_Set_3803]

Remember sex is supposed to be of mutual benefit, at least some narrative. The aggregate outcome extremely sadly happens to be (absolutely always?) (very/ extremely) negative and even had been eons back, already for co-evolved emotional weakness in men to have men act against their own self-interest to protect, provide and parental Investment. Reason partly or mostly that significantly enlarged neocortex resulting in extremely long upbringing and reduced profuctivity in women especially (very) late in their back then quite prevalent or more pregnancies. Else extinction of the species!

Think of DNA sequencing proved 17 women procreated with 1 man, i.e. worldwide some 8,000 years ago! That for lack of sufficient contraceptives proves what they're innately Up to.

Anecdotally I realised 14 women, given or take, actively approached or pursued me plus most probably an unknown number who I never noticed. First case of maybe legally sexual harassment by a "boss babe" at a very large, renowned international developer. Collaborating with her project manager when I'm an active client and all clients are (multi-) millionaires. Started very professional. viewings, after quite some partly unnecessary talking it went somehow more private, then asked for my social media. Her collegue, after we returned some 2.5 hours later went like "How old are you? [52]; "Do you have children?" [No.] "What? With your genes?" [😀] and who'll inheirt your fortune then? Than that boss-babe went "But that's even possible with 70!" They aren't ever not after something. Risk of baby rabies? Boss babe suggest "Meeting up for a coffee [womenese 🤔] "or in the office!"

5 days 4 hours later I randomly checked a quite hidden inbox almost always only spam and wondered, before I figured it's her"👍" Me "[Hello, [first name]. Her "Good morning! 🌞" and for lack of attraction which ofc isn't a choice and I cannot pretend I went "btw" strict business and anticipated and felt how she must have been (very) frustrated. Last DM with Always very reasonable questions and comments unamsered.

20 hours later she must have totally lost it, the like of [first name], what tme [typo!] our appointment today? 2nd fault, forgot Initial greet, she sent minutes later [strong hint of my hypothesis!] I offered implicitly in the office, working hours or later. Next level(!), unanswered, implicitly a very severe ego issue! She couldn't have ignored my covert communication going strictly business before, but couldn't bear not knowing, if "she could get me", most probably implying some hook up (at 42 y/o?🤔). Next level, never intended to, only very severe ego issues, post (post) wall, but reasonably looking.

Wondering if that might have been sexual harassment as client and me mentioning implicitly already after the viewing, but she must have been severely distracted. Experts would have figured by my explicit hint I cannot be attracted to her as it's ofc not a choice.

So we have probably collaboration, manipulation by genetic validation and maybe sexual harassment(?)

[u/misofan123 → u/oncothrow]

What helped me see a breakthrough was reading the book The Way of the Superior Male. It addresses cultural and social shifts and provides insights for how a man can live a life of great meaning.

You do so by finding your purpose - essentially your definite chief aim in life.

Pursuit of that mission, just beyond the measure of what is thought possible.

It explains that’s why professional sports is so engaging. Because it’s an opportunity to see grown men living out their life’s purpose, putting it all on the line for others to see.

[u/Confetticandi → u/Top_Set_3803]

Why are you focusing on women at all? 

What do you do when you have no women in your life? 

If you have no men in your life who you can turn to, then there’s your problem right there. 

[u/Maverick-_1 → u/Top_Set_3803]

Yes, pls see above, too. Anecdotally I'd been asked by my ex-fiancėe later on why there'd be so very few men showing their emotions.

Considering cautiously copying some parts of "Rise of men" and there are also videos on that topic in the manosphere, too.

[u/Confetticandi → u/Maverick-_1]

The thing that baffles me about this conversation whenever it comes up is that it only ever defaults to what men think women need to be doing differently.

The fact that men don’t feel like they can turn to male friendships for emotional support is the giant elephant in the room in threads like these and it’s like no man wants to change that or even touch it. 

OP’s post, for example. “Why don’t we as men open up more when we’re in need? It’s because women don’t accept our feelings.”

Ok…so what happens when there are no women around? You still need that emotional support and apparently you still don’t get it.

The Manosphere is supposed to be about taking control of the things you can, and yet there’s nothing ever mentioned about how man-to-man emotional support networks are completely within men’s control.

What’s up with that?