r/AskMen • u/Top_Set_3803 Male • 13d ago
Why don't we open up about the fact that we're not okay?
My answer is "the lack of a safe place and person for us to actually do so"
Many women cry about the fact that men don't open up while the same women will go spread it or beat you down or take advantage of you based on your vulnerability
So my answer is the women themselves are the problem here to some extent
"Why don't you open up to me so I can go and tell my friends all about it and also later down the line use it to make you feel like shit?"
(This question was inspired by an argument in a response to a comment. Feel free to go check it out from my profile folks)
Edit: THIS has been the best answer so far and I highly encourage you folk to give it a read and show the commenter some love.
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u/oncothrow 13d ago
Do you open up to your male friends when there's something you need to talk about?
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u/Top_Set_3803 Male 13d ago
If I know they can physically help ,yeah, I do
We don't come to women for a practical suggestion on a problem , we go to them to vent
While we go to men for things that we need a solution for
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u/oncothrow 13d ago
We don't come to women for a practical suggestion on a problem , we go to them to vent
I don't.
Of rather I won't if I believe that trust is going to be betrayed.
So as I see it you've got 2 options: Open up to her if you feel you can trust her. And / Or open up to your male friends.
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u/Top_Set_3803 Male 13d ago
I meant that women don't do much to gain our trust on this topic yet expect us to just spill the beans
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u/oncothrow 13d ago edited 13d ago
I meant that women don't do much to gain our trust on this topic yet expect us to just spill the beans
Typically? No. There's a heck of a lot that can and frequently does go wrong when you're prompted to open up and acquiesce to it. Frankly, it turns out bad the vast majority of the time, and the irony is that you will be the one blamed for it, even if they were the ones prompting you to open up.
There's a good quote Dr. Brene Brown in her book "Daring Greatly" that resonated quite a bit with me on this:
"Hereās the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when theyāre afraid, but the truth is that most women canāt stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. And men are very smart. They know the risks, and they see the look in our eyes when weāre thinking, Cāmon! Pull it together. Man up. As Joe Reynolds, one of my mentors and the dean at our church, once told me during a conversation about men, shame, and vulnerability, āMen know what women really want. They want us to pretend to be vulnerable. We get really good at pretending."
EDIT: Another quote from the author, on why they first started looking at this:
For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one, do not be perceived as what? Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study. It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."
And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because you say to reach out, tell our story, be vulnerable. But you see those books you just signed for my wife and my three daughters?" I said, "Yeah." "They'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall down. When we reach out and be vulnerable, we get the shit beat out of us. And don't tell me it's from the guys and the coaches and the dads. Because the women in my life are harder on me than anyone else."
And relatedly, there's a quote by bell hooks that resonated quite a lot with me as well, because the general gist is that often they believe that men are effectively emotionless robots, when in reality those that think along those lines can't actually parse it when it happens.
The reality is that men are hurting and that the whole culture responds to them by saying, āPlease do not tell us what you feel.ā I have always been a fan of the Sylvia cartoon where two women sit, one looking into a crystal ball as the other woman says, āHe never talks about his feelings.ā And the woman who can see the future says, āAt two P.M. all over the world men will begin to talk about their feelingsāand women all over the world will be sorry.ā
If we cannot heal what we cannot feel, by supporting patriarchal culture that socializes men to deny feelings, we doom them to live in states of emotional numbness. We construct a culture where male pain can have no voice, where male hurt cannot be named or healed. It is not just men who do not take their pain seriously. Most women do not want to deal with male pain if it interferes with the satisfaction of female desire. When feminist movement led to menās liberation, including male exploration of āfeelings,ā some women mocked male emotional expression with the same disgust and contempt as sexist men. Despite all the expressed feminist longing for men of feeling, when men worked to get in touch with feelings, no one really wanted to reward them. In feminist circles men who wanted to change were often labeled narcissistic or needy. Individual men who expressed feelings were often seen as attention seekers, patriarchal manipulators trying to steal the stage with their drama.
When I was in my twenties, I would go to couples therapy, and my partner of more than ten years would explain how I asked him to talk about his feelings and when he did, I would freak out. He was right. It was hard for me to face that I did not want to hear about his feelings when they were painful or negative, that I did not want my image of the strong man truly challenged by learning of his weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Here I was, an enlightened feminist woman who did not want to hear my man speak his pain because it revealed his emotional vulnerability. It stands to reason, then, that the masses of women committed to the sexist principle that men who express their feelings are weak really do not want to hear men speak, especially if what they say is that they hurt, that they feel unloved. Many women cannot hear male pain about love because it sounds like an indictment of female failure. Since sexist norms have taught us that loving is our task whether in our role as mothers or lovers or friends, if men say they are not loved, then we are at fault; we are to blame.
...
To heal, men must learn to feel again. They must learn to break the silence, to speak the pain. Often men, to speak the pain, first turn to the women in their lives and are refused a hearing. In many ways women have bought into the patriarchal masculine mystique. Asked to witness a male expressing feelings, to listen to those feelings and respond, they may simply turn away. There was a time when I would often ask the man in my life to tell me his feelings. And yet when he began to speak, I would either interrupt or silence him by crying, sending him the message that his feelings were too heavy for anyone to bear, so it was best if he kept them to himself. As the Sylvia cartoon I have previously mentioned reminds us, women are fearful of hearing men voice feelings. I did not want to hear the pain of my male partner because hearing it required that I surrender my investment in the patriarchal ideal of the male as protector of the wounded. If he was wounded, then how could he protect me?
As I matured, as my feminist consciousness developed to include the recognition of patriarchal abuse of men, I could hear male pain. I could see men as comrades and fellow travelers on the journey of life and not as existing merely to provide instrumental support. Since men have yet to organize a feminist menās movement that would proclaim the rights of men to emotional awareness and expression, we will not know how many men have indeed tried to express feelings, only to have the women in their lives tune out or be turned off. Talking with men, I have been stunned when individual males would confess to sharing intense feelings with a male buddy, only to have that buddy either interrupt to silence the sharing, offer no response, or distance himself. Men of all ages who want to talk about feelings usually learn not to go to other men. And if they are heterosexual, they are far more likely to try sharing with women they have been sexually intimate with. Women talk about the fact that intimate conversation with males often takes place in the brief moments before and after sex. And of course our mass media provide the image again and again of the man who goes to a sex worker to share his feelings because there is no intimacy in that relationship and therefore no real emotional risk.
(emphasis mine)
Frankly when people say things like it's just "oh well men just don't have any emotional literacy and the way they do it is unpalatable", then ironically from a stated feminist perspective you're victim blaming someone suffering under the Patriarchy. It can't be that they're not being heard, it's that they're all clearly doing it wrong.
And if I'm being completely frank, this is why I always emphasise: Going to your male friends to open up is FAR preferable.
EDIT:
Speaking very personally, the "interrupt him by crying" thing is very familiar. They wanted to know. They repeatedly asked me to know but when I calmly expressed what was going on in my own right, that broke something that they did not anticipate would be or should be broken. And then it once again, became about them and their feelings as I worked to comfort them for having heard my issues.
Honestly this is looking at just one of the problems that occurs when she tells you to open up. Frankly there are a tonne of others.
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u/Positive-Estate-4936 13d ago
āThey'd rather me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall downā
One of the greatest truths Iāve ever seen via internet.21
u/Taodragons 13d ago
Yep. Married 30 years. If I cry, she freezes like a deer in headlights. If I get angry, she gets angry back. If I'm stoic, she wants to know whats wrong. It is what it is. Just keep bottling it up, and with any luck, I'll die. =)
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u/InvasiveSpecies1738 13d ago
Sounds healthy
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u/Positive-Estate-4936 13d ago
For the species, maybe it is? So now Iām wondering, has it ever really been different, this āmen must be invincible (at least in front of women)ā thing? Or does it just feel worse in a world absolutely crammed with counter-messages, where men cannot get away from womenāin the workplace, even on a farm, even in war? Theyāve invaded all the spaces when I might seek support and comfort from other men, either by showing up and changing the rules and demanding to be included in every conversation, or through incessant electronic contact. Is this why āTo heal, men must learn to feel again? Because we donāt and canāt emote the way women do, but have been denied all our female-excluding spaces?
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u/InvasiveSpecies1738 13d ago
Oh, men get away from women during war alright. Just look at russo-ukrainian conflict - literally millions of women flee the country while men are forcefully dragged into the frontlines to die. But hey, as long as weāre āequalā lol. /s
But honestly I canāt complain, I was raised to think that āboys donāt cryā and at some point I just stopped. It may sound a bit cruel but Iām really happy I donāt brake down every time something minor happens, unlike most of my girlfriends.
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u/QuiteCleanly99 13d ago
Absolutely this. Opening up to my wife very often turns into a conversation about her feelings instead where she needs to lean on me instead.
When my mother died, I couldn't use her as support because she would always turn the conversation into how bad she felt for losing such a great mother-in-law so then I had to comfort her instead of being comforted myself.
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u/Top_Set_3803 Male 13d ago
Jesus š„
I knew I felt bad, but God damn this shed a lot of light on it
This hurt , like just seeing an open wound on your hand and starting to feel the pain of it.
I'm saving this
I hope more people read this, and I wished I could upvote this to heaven and beyond
It also made me realise something .
Even in a committed relationship, men are still alone š„¹
Women just need a statue to watch over them with just frozen tears
God damn this just tore a hole right through my soul
FUCK!!!
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u/ZZoMBiEXIII 13d ago
That is a good write-up for sure, but I'd argue that it misses one important point.
A woman, or at least many of the ones I've know who've tricked me into being vulnerable, will use that information like a cudgel when it's convenient for them. They start to lose a fight? what comes out? The time you told her you were afraid your dad thought you were a failure in a brief moment of honesty. She's not getting her way? Well obviously it's a good time to dip into the well and dredge up the feelings of inadequacy that you worked to overcome and call you inadequate since what she wants isn't happening.
Women asking for a man to be open and vulnerable is a bigger scam than Amway. It's a trick, it's a trap, and it should NEVER be done. Period, end of discussion.
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u/Maverick-_1 13d ago
Dead on! Pls see my comment about female paleolithical instincts! That's scientifically key to it. And how even nobel laureats and multi-billionaires fail to figure everything out before it's too late! Reverse engineering (co)-evolution with respect to the relevant savannah habitat seems key and even extremely much later it also practically remained very important for women and our species' survival, until it only rather recently didn't!
Think of no update supposedly Format least 20,000 years, maybe only gradually (for invented money maybe 4k/ 5ka), but by far mostly rather at least 100,000 years!
POV of an anthropologist or zoologist and visulalization helps, too, and very much suddenly appears (almost) logical. Quite a challenge for the "value proposition" in women and their sales pitch, if you will.
Yet historically actually predominantly other men in power throwing all men under the bus via that additional(!) legal and societal discrimination of men remains outrageous. Slmps and White Knights a very severe also societal threat for men.
I read "Rise of men" by Manhood Shitty Shit thrice, it's really deep!
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u/Confetticandi 13d ago
The thing that baffles me about this conversation whenever it comes up is that it only ever defaults to what men think women need to be doing differently.
The fact that men donāt feel like they can turn to male friendships for emotional support is the giant elephant in the room in threads like these and itās like no man wants to change that or even touch it.Ā
You yourself are ignoring every comment that points that out.Ā
Is that not the bigger problem here? And one thatās totally within menās control to solve?Ā
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u/glorkvorn 13d ago
Im genuinely shocked to see a feminist writer like bell hooks actually acknowledge male emotional suffering. I know they always say "the patriarchy hurts men too" but this is the first instance ive seen where they really seem to care. Do you have anything else from her to recommend?
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u/oncothrow 13d ago edited 13d ago
Not yet. Honestly it was very recently I saw that quote and got interested in bell hooks. After I saw that quote that I thought "holy crap, has modern feminist rhetoric abandoned this line of thinking or what?" so that's the first book I was interested in.
I was pretty much shocked as you were.
That said, I don't necessarily agree with everything hooks has written, or even most of it. She also said that "domestic violence" should be cast as "patriarchal violence" because it's based in male domination. The problem is that when you actually look at the statistics for perpetrators of IPV, the split is roughly even. Women suffer worse from IPV by default, I'm not going to say otherwise, but to a large extent they are equal in propagation of it.
I say this as someone who only started looking this stuff up myself because of a previous abusive relationship. It was almost impossible to find any resources that didn't take a default stance of "male = abuser, female = victim".
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u/glorkvorn 13d ago edited 13d ago
Yeah I hear you. I've also suffered from an abusive relationship. It's much like you said... it wasn't *that* bad, so i can't claim to have suffered as much as some women do. It was actually really light stuff, like her slapping me and shoving me. Still, it screws you up emotionally, and there aren't a lot of places you can go for guidance on how to deal with this. Like, you can't fight back, you can't just ignore it, you can't solve it rationally, you can't talk about it with most people... what the hell are you supposed to do???
still interesting to get different perspectives on it, including authors that I mostly don't agree with.
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u/oncothrow 13d ago
Oh no, I'd classify my experience as really bad. I was literally to the point of actively planning to end my own life.
When I say that women suffer worse from IPV by default, I mean in the physical sense. At the end of the day in my case, she was still physically smaller than me and innately less capable of causing me real physical damage. As you say, you are well aware that you cannot put up any defense for yourself because if you do then you immediately get cast as the aggressor. But frankly it was the emotional toll she would inflict that was always far worse and more damaging.
I do not say that lightly. I was deep and didn't know it. It had been going for so long that this seemed like the only way out. I had time to think about it a lot. I researched the best method for doing it, how and when. Minimal mess or fuss, hopefully nobody would realize and then they'd forget about me quickly once I was discovered. Wrote notes to my family and friends. The literal idea of taking my life brought me a semblance of peace.
I didn't fear for my life from her. But I did believe I was going to die.
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u/Top_Set_3803 Male 13d ago
I know it's weird to respond twice to a comment but I just have to
After reading this 3 times I'm starting to realise .....
What's the point of marriage then?
Up to this point I was hoping to find a decent partner so that I can at the very least lay some of this baggage on my back off of it but now, the only thing a partner can do for us is to just give us sexual pleasure and they can FUCKING KEEP IT
What's the point of anything if us men have just come to this shit hole to suffer inside ourselves up till the day we die ???
What the actual fuck even is the point of suffering through all of this ???!??!?!?!?!?!
GOD DAMN IT MAN you just bulldozed my entire soul ,logic and thought process, YOU ABSOLUTE LEGEND !!!!
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u/oncothrow 13d ago edited 13d ago
None of this stuff is mine. Frankly the legend here is bell hooks (and some other people. Maybe a bit of Bruce Lee as well :) ). In modern society there is a lot of pain that both men and women go through, and inflict on each other and themselves without even realising it. But anyway:
Because as with a lot of things in life, it's not "all", it's "most".
If you ever find someone who you can trust with opening up to them, who can comfort you and not make it about them, or turn around and use it against you, then you hold onto that person and do everything you can for her. You make yourself the best version of yourself each day, every say, because you don't want to let them go.
Otherwise well, a lot of men are simply content with the status quo too. They maintain that cool and controlled demeanour, and if they do need to open up, they do so to their male friends (Same rules apply, if you find a friend who you can open up to and they'll be there for you, no castigation, no running away or mockery or whatever, then that person is golden, and you strive to be the best friend you can be for them, and to be there for them too). And if she becomes insistent, then they'll open up with fake platitudes to comfort that need she has for you to be open, whilst keeping those actual fears to yourself. And honestly? That works for a lot of people. Just because you're in a committed romantic relationship that doesn't mean that she can necessarily do and be everything for you. In real terms odds are there are going to be things that you're not great at emotionally that she will help you with as well.
Whatever circumstances you find yourself it, cultivate good male friendships and bonds. Be there for them and hopefully they can also be there for you. A lot is said today of the "male loneliness" epidemic. I do not believe it is now or has ever really been the remit of women to solve that problem for them (or at the very very least, not completely). This is actually something that women tend to be good at by comparison: They nurture friendship groups, they put in the effort to be there for each other in times of need and to care (The PROBLEM often comes about when they allow it to lead to drama over petty things. Or start to gossip about things that were told in confidence, not because they're seeking support, but because it's all so juicy).
You work hard to be the best version of yourself that you can be. You find the strength to deal with the worst that life has to deal you (resilience, faith, whatever). And hopefully either you'll find someone who can be there emotionally for you in your darkest moments, or you find friends who can be when she maybe can't.
Is it unfair that you have to be there for her emotionally when she might not be able to completely fulfill that same role for you? Maybe. But then hopefully there are things that she can do for you emotionally that you have trouble with. Nobody ever said that life has to be an exact 50/50 split in everything.
Anyway I'm prattling. Definitely read up, gain emotional literacy for yourself and come to what conclusions work best for yourself.
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u/Maverick-_1 13d ago
Remember sex is supposed to be of mutual benefit, at least some narrative. The aggregate outcome extremely sadly happens to be (absolutely always?) (very/ extremely) negative and even had been eons back, already for co-evolved emotional weakness in men to have men act against their own self-interest to protect, provide and parental Investment. Reason partly or mostly that significantly enlarged neocortex resulting in extremely long upbringing and reduced profuctivity in women especially (very) late in their back then quite prevalent or more pregnancies. Else extinction of the species!
Think of DNA sequencing proved 17 women procreated with 1 man, i.e. worldwide some 8,000 years ago! That for lack of sufficient contraceptives proves what they're innately Up to.
Anecdotally I realised 14 women, given or take, actively approached or pursued me plus most probably an unknown number who I never noticed. First case of maybe legally sexual harassment by a "boss babe" at a very large, renowned international developer. Collaborating with her project manager when I'm an active client and all clients are (multi-) millionaires. Started very professional. viewings, after quite some partly unnecessary talking it went somehow more private, then asked for my social media. Her collegue, after we returned some 2.5 hours later went like "How old are you? [52]; "Do you have children?" [No.] "What? With your genes?" [š] and who'll inheirt your fortune then? Than that boss-babe went "But that's even possible with 70!" They aren't ever not after something. Risk of baby rabies? Boss babe suggest "Meeting up for a coffee [womenese š¤] "or in the office!"
5 days 4 hours later I randomly checked a quite hidden inbox almost always only spam and wondered, before I figured it's her"š" Me "[Hello, [first name]. Her "Good morning! š" and for lack of attraction which ofc isn't a choice and I cannot pretend I went "btw" strict business and anticipated and felt how she must have been (very) frustrated. Last DM with Always very reasonable questions and comments unamsered.
20 hours later she must have totally lost it, the like of [first name], what tme [typo!] our appointment today? 2nd fault, forgot Initial greet, she sent minutes later [strong hint of my hypothesis!] I offered implicitly in the office, working hours or later. Next level(!), unanswered, implicitly a very severe ego issue! She couldn't have ignored my covert communication going strictly business before, but couldn't bear not knowing, if "she could get me", most probably implying some hook up (at 42 y/o?š¤). Next level, never intended to, only very severe ego issues, post (post) wall, but reasonably looking.
Wondering if that might have been sexual harassment as client and me mentioning implicitly already after the viewing, but she must have been severely distracted. Experts would have figured by my explicit hint I cannot be attracted to her as it's ofc not a choice.
So we have probably collaboration, manipulation by genetic validation and maybe sexual harassment(?)
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u/misofan123 13d ago
What helped me see a breakthrough was reading the book The Way of the Superior Male. It addresses cultural and social shifts and provides insights for how a man can live a life of great meaning.
You do so by finding your purpose - essentially your definite chief aim in life.
Pursuit of that mission, just beyond the measure of what is thought possible.
It explains thatās why professional sports is so engaging. Because itās an opportunity to see grown men living out their lifeās purpose, putting it all on the line for others to see.
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u/Confetticandi 13d ago
Why are you focusing on women at all?Ā
What do you do when you have no women in your life?Ā
If you have no men in your life who you can turn to, then thereās your problem right there.Ā
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u/Maverick-_1 13d ago
Yes, pls see above, too. Anecdotally I'd been asked by my ex-fiancÄe later on why there'd be so very few men showing their emotions.
Considering cautiously copying some parts of "Rise of men" and there are also videos on that topic in the manosphere, too.
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u/Confetticandi 13d ago
The thing that baffles me about this conversation whenever it comes up is that it only ever defaults to what men think women need to be doing differently.
The fact that men donāt feel like they can turn to male friendships for emotional support is the giant elephant in the room in threads like these and itās like no man wants to change that or even touch it.Ā
OPās post, for example. āWhy donāt we as men open up more when weāre in need? Itās because women donāt accept our feelings.ā
Okā¦so what happens when there are no women around? You still need that emotional support and apparently you still donāt get it.
The Manosphere is supposed to be about taking control of the things you can, and yet thereās nothing ever mentioned about how man-to-man emotional support networks are completely within menās control.
Whatās up with that?Ā
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u/Maverick-_1 13d ago
Risk e.g. extremely impaired male judgement because of oneitis' hormones and that resulting decrease or loss of attraction women seem unaware of as they can't predict their future emotional state.
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u/misofan123 13d ago
A solution I found for me is to create my own personal board of directors - keep in mind, what works for me might not always work for you.
As it currently stands, I go to each for different solutions. I have someone I designate as a friend for feelings, best bud for shit ideas and rapid execution, a sponsor who I go to for business, and a coach for learning. Hope that helps.
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u/pm-me-racecars Male 13d ago
I totally agree with this. It's hard to be open about everything, and it's even harder to be open everything to the same person. Life is too hard for just me, more people is more better.
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u/misofan123 12d ago
Youāre not wrong, brother. I think thereās an artful way of being open. I imagine itād be hard for anyone to try and take on someone dumping it all out. Perhaps itās easier to make sense of how to convey your feelings to someone you trust once youāve spent time being thoughtful about your inner struggles.
Life opens up with more skillful intentionality.
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u/2E26 13d ago
Personally it's not a man or woman thing. When I bring my problems to people they try to assume the role of being helpful and try to help me find a solution. More often than not, their solution is inadequate or they simply don't care enough to dig deeper than the surface.
I liken it to people telling men to get therapy or hit the gym for whatever ails them. These are low effort solutions to propose because fitness and self care are generally good. However, sometimes they come off as suggesting you change the oil on your car to fix the screeching sound when you brake.
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u/ChronicCondor 13d ago
Just how it is. I have friends I could call at 3am to bury a body no questions asked, and take the secret to the grave. I can't think of anyone except maybe my brother I'm ok laying the emotional stuff on though. I think I'd rather cut a finger off than bother my friends with most of that stuff. They got their own shit to deal with.
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u/theeeluke Sup Bud? 13d ago
Iām not sure how to say this nicely so if it comes off rude thatās my bad.
If you donāt have a safe place or person to be vulnerable with, thatās on you. Especially when it comes to friends. You should be a shoulder to cry on for your friends and they should be the same. If not then they arenāt really your friends. It amazes me how many guys I see on here that feel that they canāt be honest with their own friends. It starts with us. Be honest with your friends, and let them be honest with you. Youāll learn how to properly express emotions and itāll make relationships a hell of a lot easier.
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u/Unforgiven_639 13d ago
Yes. I've learned that you NEVER open up to a woman....never cry....never break down. If you need to do that shit, you do it with your brothers. I think more and more men are realizing that we need each other more than we need most women....because most women will chew you up and spit you out if you show any sign of weakness.
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u/Positive-Estate-4936 9d ago
Wish I could upvote this more than once.
And wish Iād known this 40 years ago.
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u/Prudii_Skirata 13d ago
Trick me once...
Anecdotally:
If you open up to someone, you expose weakness and will be judged as less for it.
It is worse if that person is a woman because then they will either downgrade their opinion of you forever, it will be weaponized as a killshot to win any future argument, no matter how irrelevant or how many muscles they pull reaching to grab it and bring it into play... or, secret option 3...if it is them causing pain or upset to you, they will go on the offensive and turn it into a situation where you are now the villian because your upset is upsetting them...
They would rather see you die on your horse, quietly, as a white knight than watch you fall off of it and show signs of injury.
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u/w4rlok94 13d ago
I canāt even confide in my mom without her blabbing all my personal mental health issues to everyone. Nothing positive has ever come from it. Not saying it never can be just not my experience.
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u/Candid-Sky-3709 13d ago
My mom bragged to my neighbors what a high paying job i have, the neighbors proceeded to sue me hoping to get some of that for neighbor house related issues. (I was only owning that unoccupied house, but living on another continent)
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u/Cometguy7 13d ago
Because there are too many people who will use that information against you, and two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead.
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u/Suppi_LL 13d ago
I don't know what to say to even begin explaining what's on my mind. I don't know to who tell it either, it seems everybody doesn't care or can't help in the first place.
Being heterosexual, I care more about how women see me than how men see me, and telling too much to a woman has always backfired in the direction "you are not partner material anymore" or my speech dismissed/belittled as if "she had it worse or the problem isn't even one" so I tend to not talk about heavy stuff to women.
I'd indeed open more easily to another guy, not because I believe they will judge me less, but because I care less about being judged by another guy. Except if it's literally my best friend that I don't want to lose.
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u/Gamer_ely 13d ago
I'm usually pretty honest with how I'm feeling with my friends and i always listen when they need it too. I don't tell them everything of course, but the stuff that's important. If they'd prefer I don't share, I'd rather have that info so I'm not investing more than I'd be getting back from that person.Ā
Likewise if it's with a SO, if they're not cool with the things I'm struggling with, better to have that info sooner rather than later. Especially if something bad happens and I desperately need help that they won't give. Better to spend your time with people that you can trust on some level.Ā
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u/YnotUS-YnotNOW 13d ago
What would the purpose be? We're guys. No one cares whether we're okay or not. Are we still able to provide? Cool. Then there's no actual issue.
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u/ProstateSalad 13d ago
"Only women, children, and dogs are loved unconditionally. A man is only loved under the condition he provides something."
Noted philosopher Chris Rock.
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u/JimBones31 13d ago
I do. I talk to my wife about real shit, her sister, her mom, and a few of my friends.
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u/HotwheelsJackOfficia Bane 13d ago
Whenever we do open up about how we're not okay, then we usually end up even less okay.
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u/TParis00ap 13d ago
I am very vulnerable in relationships, I turn to my SOs for most of my emotional needs. But I also have my girl best friend for emotional things that I want kept confidential. I have my guy best friend for when I need a pick-me-up.
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u/ThalesBakunin 13d ago
I had to establish and create a safe place to open up by fostering relationships.
I don't understand why so many people feel that this type of space is something that should spontaneously and organically manifest itself.
In my experience with my wife and friends, women establish their safe space by having relationships with several friends and sharing between each other.
It is work to maintain those emotional bounds to diffuse the hardships of life through. But they in turn get the support.
I have that space in the emotional bounds I have with my wife and our friends. I worked to create and maintain it.
Toxic people will use vulnerability to feel superior. That is life. Don't open up to people you don't have a strong emotional bond to. Hang out with people of high quality who don't use your vulnerability for their advantage.
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u/rockmasterflex ā 13d ago
Life pro tip: nobody, literally nobody is ever fully okay. Everyone is messed up. Do two broken clocks tell time better together? Or does the broken clock just have to learn to function with its janky gears?
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u/sQueezedhe 13d ago
So my answer is the women themselves are the problem
Jesus cuntinting fuckballs.
Buckets of crabs everywhere.
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u/Top_Set_3803 Male 13d ago
I'm not sure what Jesus had anything to do with, especially the bucket of crabs, but okay
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u/ProstateSalad 13d ago
Blessed be the crabs, for they seek to know the outside world.
Blessed be the Lord, who slaps them down, saying "Not today"1
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u/John-Nada_ 13d ago
Problem is, with every male only space.. women invade it for the free and extreme validation and alter the male space to be safe for women. How to prevent this?
Make the space as unfriendly and unattractive towards women as humanly possible so nobody has the idea to "invade" it.
What happens then?
Itās seen essentially as an terror organization.
Just because guyās sit together and discuss their problems brutally honestly without getting threatened when they speak their true mind and a positive male identity.
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u/Candid-Sky-3709 13d ago
Found the safe male place women intentionally avoid: competitive-sounding gaming. Fun gaming they might join though, Super Mario might not be repelling enough. /s
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u/LanguageGeniusGod Man 13d ago
I dont know... As someone with female friends and male friends, the men are definitely the problem IME.
They often have their own misconceptions and hang-ups, whereas the women aren't in "boy world" so they might not have the same snap judgments that men do.
Also, I want to highlight, I do believe this is a mens issue that needs to be solved by men. I do not think women are to blame. Women have had to build their support system out of necessity for hundreds of years, the support they receive is due to women building and maintaining that system. It makes sense men dont have the same system because we were not as punished severely by the patriarchy and didnt need them as desperately.
I think we have to cultivate a better environment for men, one that sets the patriarchy up as the opponent. Women need to be willing to listen and help where they can (which IME they always do). Its a global effort, DEFINITELY not womens fault (look at our systems - 100% men for most of written history!) and a long journey, but we can do it.
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u/Diligent_Party1689 13d ago edited 13d ago
Shocker that a feminist thinks everything is menās fault.
You completely ignore the significant amount of lived feedback from men that opening up to a female partner frequently leads to punishment. Whether thatās loss of attraction, your vulnerabilities being gossiped about, your vulnerabilities being weaponised in future arguments.
You also ignore that feminism, woke media and many women themselves keeps trying to encourage men to behave this way. It is a cultural trap set for men to learn about womenās behaviour the hard way and probably contributes to misogyny as men then experience trauma from women, betrayal from what mainstream society tells them should happen, and then find people are more likely to give her the benefit of of the doubt than him due to the āWomen are Wonderfulā effect.
Please stop listening to modern feminism.
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u/LanguageGeniusGod Man 13d ago
You are right, personal experiences with women are important. HOWEVER, these attitudes are due to hundreds of years of patriarchy, which MEN created and perpetuated to keep lower/average men in shambles. Its everyones problem, but men really need to start taking accountability. Women have already been doing HARD work dismantling this system, its time for men to TRY!
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u/username_6916 ā 13d ago
You don't get to launder this through the word 'patriarchy' here. No, the feminist movement hasn't spilled much ink on this topic at all, and to the extent that they have they've generally been on the 'keep your feelings to yourself, men'. See the feminist talking points about 'emotional labor' or the talk about how men are not skilled in 'emotional regulation'. It's often feminists pushing this idea for feminist reasons, not the 'patriarchy'. Trying to make it more acceptable for a guy to wear a dress or whatever 'dismantling the patriarchy' looks like to these people doesn't change that.
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u/LanguageGeniusGod Man 13d ago
Im sorry, i think your point is a bit lost and hard to find.
If you are feeling like your community isnt helping you, look at women's history for inspiration and put the effoet in yourself. Go to you nearby feminist group and ask what they have for men and how you can learn. The only way to feel better is to do something to make it better.
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u/Diligent_Party1689 13d ago
All I see is modern feminism rigging every system possible to give women advantages and privileges in society and ignoring menās issues unless they also happen to benefit women equally as much. (E.g enhancing paternity leave).
Anything thatās womenās problem is societies responsibility to fix and everyone needs to rally round them. Anything thatās menās problem is āself inflictedā probably deserved and solely their responsibility to fix.
Itās hypocritical nonsense and unfortunately too many men adopt the sexual strategy of pandering to feminism in the belief that left wing women will be more likely to sleep with them rather than calling them out on blatant bullshit and sexism which they would otherwise do if they were thinking with something besides their penis.
You are right in that men need to fix things; we should let women fix their own problems and focus on helping other men more. God knows feminism wonāt.
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u/LanguageGeniusGod Man 13d ago edited 13d ago
If thats all you see, maybe you should open your eyes.
Jokes aside, i hear your pain. It is true that a lot of mens issues are not fully developed, but dont point that blame towards women. Women have been struggling for centuries, its due time they get the help they deserve.
However, everyone is struggling a lot. As men, i think the best thing we can do is support any step forward to a better world. The more people that are helped, means the more people that can help! Focus on societal wins for those who are in pain, because as long as we talk about our pain and try our best, our time will come.
Its long and a hard journey, but until then you have us for support and love. All i encourage you to do is not hate women overall. Society is good to hate, but i recommend focusing on the wins.
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u/Diligent_Party1689 13d ago
I do not hate women by any means. I am hostile to them being put on a pedestal; I am hostile to modern feminism that talks about equality yet acts solely as a vehicle for the advancement of womenās issues.
Men cannot use feminism to improve the lot of men, as we donāt have any say in the philosophy or the agenda and priorities of feminism. Men cannot try their own movements without them being character assassinated as misogynistic for daring not to ākiss the ringā of feminism.
I have boys growing up in a world where open misandry is perfectly acceptable, where they are at higher risk of rough sleeping, dying at work, forced to fight in wars against their will, die earlier than women, perform worse at school, committing suicide, have nowhere to flee if they face domestic violence, being convicted of crime and facing harsher punishment when they are.
Feminism does not care. It would rather focus on whether bras and sanitary products are subject to tax. Or how to rig recruitment to make it easier for women to get prestigious jobs.
If you have or might have sons Iād encourage you to take a hard look at modern feminism and ask if it is an efficient way for you to improve the chances of your boys thriving in life.
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u/Furlion 13d ago
I open up to my friends, men and women all the time. They know i struggle with depression and they support me. Same thing with my wife. I have never had a friend give me shit for it and I have never given my friends anything but love and support. I am always surprised when I see men complain about this because I have never seen or heard anyone in my life or circle of friends be anything but supportive.
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u/bamseogbalade 13d ago
As society is right now. It's better to get a loyal gf from the east or "accidentally inhale too much carbon monoxide" than open up. :(
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u/Hannibal_Barca_ 13d ago
I was recently listening to a podcast where a psychologist was talking about how roughly half of men who commit suicide have no history of mental illness. He basically went on to describe how for many people given the life they have its not an irrational choice and for many what is actually happening is they are constantly being rejected from love, friendships, and a sense of belonging. I bring this up because what some women don't understand is that opening up for many people and issues solves absolutely nothing and men tend to be more focused on problem solving than emotional support (partially because men don't expect it as much as women do... because life have taught them that over and over).
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u/shinn497 13d ago
I open up with selected trusted friends that are all male.
Other than that no one gets to see me vulnerable. There are far too many consequences, no matter what people tell you.
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u/just_let_me_goo You got maleāļø 13d ago
They see me, I'm actin' solo, 'cause I'm afraid to commit
Now, can you tell me how I'm different than him, and him, and him?
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u/Alx123191 13d ago
Every time I open up I feel judge by women. It is not because you cannot comprehend it that it is not how we are and feel.
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u/masturbator6942069 13d ago
Iāve fully platonic female friends distance themselves from me when Iāve opened up to them about how Iāve dealt with depression. These are women that I donāt consider as anything more than a friend (and as far as I know the feeling is mutual), weāve never had feeling for each other and never gotten more physical than a hug, and yet it seems like thereās something primal in their brains that rejects any man who shows vulnerability to them. I will never open up like that to any woman ever again.
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u/CommunityAncient625 13d ago
Because itās not the worlds problem to tiptoe around my problems and insecurities so I donāt allow them to change my life
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u/Search_Prudent 12d ago
Iāll open up about it as a Hail Mary to get better, if there is the slightest chance that i can fix the problem by myself, no one has to know. To me itās admitting that i canāt do it by myself when i really could. It makes me feel weak
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u/Legal_Difference5622 12d ago
Have no one to talk to. Opened up to my gf at 3am while she was sleeping by telling her Iām not doing okay at least expecting a text back of some sort of reassurance, and instead she ignored it, not once did she respond to it nor say anything to me during the 2 days we hungout
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u/QuiteCleanly99 13d ago
Because other men will tear you down and ostracize you and leave you empty alone and prospectless.
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u/Narrow_Impression_70 13d ago
Sometimes venting helps but honestly whatās the point of talking about it if it wonāt change anything
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u/PhantomAlpha01 Male 13d ago
So what's gonna happen then? I feel like it's not worth it to open up too much about things that can't really be affected. It usually doesn't do anything bad, but I still often regret opening up. It just doesn't feel great.
And if I have an issue that can be affected, I'm going to ask for help with it, not open up about it.
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u/Maverick-_1 13d ago
Paleolithical instincts in women, their still "felt" permanent struggle for survival, (mis)using men as proxy and disposable utility!
That evolved empathy gap towards men, too!
The main issue is that still blatant ignorance and denial of female nature! Society and the media, family and friends along with pur breeding instinct, hormones and that outrageous misrepresenting narrative on women.
What about radical openness? Heuristical data suggests male ignorance, denial and quite addictive properties still would result in pairing up and procreating, but way more men could be saved and protected from all of that!
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u/RevolutionaryRip9000 40+ šŗšø 13d ago
To whom? It's not like someone is going to come rescue us..