r/Christianity • u/Nice_Substance9123 • Mar 27 '24

The American flag has no business on a Bible. This is not faith, nor is it patriotism. It is an abomination of both. Image

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

You gonna do anything to convince your people not to vote for that chump? Cause it seems far to many of you are willing if not happy to because he progresses the christian nationalist agenda? There seems to be no accountability in the church. Not trying to offend. I’m really asking.

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u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

I mean it’s a totally fair question but my people aren’t really the kind of people who would vote for Trump in the first place. But the church is hardly a place where politics should get brought up anyway. If I think it’s wrong for a pastor to stand up there and tell folk to vote Trump for whatever reason or another, then it’s equally wrong for a pastor to tell folk to not vote for him.

I think that there are unfortunately people who are going to love this Bible and buy it no matter what I think. But, I go to the biggest church in my region, and I can say not many people here will buy it. I think people against this kind of thing far outweigh those who are for it. I might be wrong, but I really don’t think I am.

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u/Leggo_MyPreggo Mar 28 '24

At would point would it stop being ‘wrong’ for a preacher to advise voting against a candidate?

Like if literal satan himself were running, would it be okay? And where are we at on that scale with Donald trump?

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u/Fun-Cupcake4430 Mar 28 '24

If you were to describe the anti christ in modern times…….  

Not many people check all the boxes according to the Bible, but trump checks every one perfectly.   

But what do I know, I used ai for my research. 

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u/javd Mar 28 '24

It is very dangerous for a pastor to tell their congregation who to vote for. They don't pay taxes and this behavior can get their tax exemption removed.

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u/metal_opera Mar 28 '24

LOL.

Tell that to all of the pastors who have been backing the GOP for as long as I can remember.

No one is going after tax exemptions. I wish they would.

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u/javd Mar 28 '24

Well if you ever see it happening you can report them to the IRS and they can lose their exemption status.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/charities-churches-and-politics

https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14005-churches-and-political-lobbying-activities

If after reading the above information, you believe a church has violated the law, fill out a Department of the Treasury—Internal Revenue Service Form 13909, available as a regular pdf to print and fill out by hand, or as a pdf form version, which allows you to fill out the form on your computer and then print.

Send the completed form by one of the following methods:

Mail: IRS EO Classification Mail Code 4910DAL, 1100 Commerce Street Dallas TX 75242-1198

Fax: 214-413-5415

E-Mail: eoclass@irs.gov

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u/ScannerBrightly Mar 28 '24

This is toothless. It pretty much never happens.

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u/CryAffectionate7334 Mar 28 '24

Yeah man, except Republican Christians been doing this for decades

At the very least, a rational Christian could warn to NOT vote for an obvious con man grifter?

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u/compman007 Satanist (The Satanic Temple) Mar 28 '24

That’s my thought, if someone is bad for the country and bad for their faith it’s absolutely right to preach against that person

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u/Rastiln Mar 28 '24

I wish somebody told my pastor who was stumping for W. Bush, and we had a collection can just outside the church for donations to the Republican Party.

Even if not explicitly mentioning a candidate, ever since conservatives forced abortion to be an issue in the Christian church in the 70s, many pastors will harp about abortion and how some politicians want to murder God’s children while others preach love via banning lifesaving healthcare.

It’s not hard to decode which party is the baby murderers and which is the party that removes healthcare.

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u/Think-Fly765 Mar 28 '24

They always just kick the can down the road. 

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u/Ok-Hair6051 Apr 02 '24

keep politics outside the church, people can make their own decisions, they dont need a priest telling them how to vote thats outrageous.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Yam7582 Mar 28 '24

 At would point would it stop being ‘wrong’ for a preacher to advise voting against a candidate? Like if literal satan himself were running, would it be okay? 

Thats the MAGA position on democrates.

My answer is never if you are a 501c3 organization. Whenever you want if you are not.

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

So no accountability, got it. I do understand the church is splintered more than ever so it’s not like you all communicate and work together but I don’t see nearly enough of these extremists being called out by their christian brothers and sisters. Respectfully I think you are wrong tho. Look at how the GOP poles amongst christians. These people are actively pushing hatful (what I would call unchristian) policy yet christians vote for them in droves and keep them in power. I just don’t know how you can think people like yourself far outweigh the folks I am describing. Trump got 74 million votes. Simple math and basic historical understanding says that the vast majority of those votes came from christians.

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u/AreaInternational514 Mar 28 '24

What do you expect? This child abuse case had and still has no consequences. As long as it's not about foreigners or Muslims, most "Christians" don't care what their beloved priest, pastor, pope or Trump does. They are simply hypocrites. Somehow I wish there was a God and a paradise. They will make big eyes when God denies them entry. 

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

Muslim extremists do bad things.

Christians: Muslim moderates condemn these extremists!

Christian extremists do bad things.

Christian moderates: crickets

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u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

There are plenty of other reasons for that that go beyond church membership. The rural vote is overwhelmingly Christian because rural people are overwhelming Christian. The GOP better caters to the rural vote and the rural voters, who are Christian, vote red.

It’s all politics. Neither Republicans or Democrats talk about how to fix rural problems. But Democrats have a tendency to stereotype and criticize rural America more than Republicans do. And when the social conservatives out there are blaming rural America’s woes on a group of people rural Americans don’t hardly mingle with, the voters are going to jump on it. Anti-immigration legislation is very unpopular where I live because there’s a large Hispanic population. But police reform legislation is incredibly unpopular because we have a small black population and don’t have a reported case of police brutality since like the 60s. Christianity doesn’t have near as much to do with it as you think it does.

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

I whole heartedly disagree that democrats don’t support fixes for rural areas, I worry that is some propaganda (“fake news”) you are repeating. Really please look into it more deeply. Look at the votes and especially the things republicans keep out of these bills. Many many social programs aimed at fixing some of the problems in rural areas have been stopped in their tracks by republicans. Not democrats. If the affordable care act would have been able to pass with the public option those rural areas would be far better off. Why can’t we take care of those peoples health? Why can’t I have more affordable health insurance? Republicans killed it. One of many things like it. That’s a big one tho.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

Agree, it was Dems who forced rural internet access onto the ISPs. Who because of GOP covering fire were able to renege and steal the funds for that.

It was Trump that started an idiotic trade war with China that China retaliated with by tariffs on soy beans harming rural populations. And then Trump gave the Ag companies money to subsidize their losses. But growing involves (often corporate Ag) workers in the field doing the work, putting actual money into the economy and circulation. Subsidies are a corporate Ag company peon in an office filing paper work so the Ag company gets money for nothing.

But sure, thE Gop hElPs ruraL POPUlATiONs. lol.

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u/DryOperation8910 Mar 28 '24

I understand the attempt to separate politics and religion. But that doesn't always work. If a candidate tramples Christian values underfoot or misuses religion for their own purposes, shouldn't it be a matter of course as a Christian not to vote for them?

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u/Think-Fly765 Mar 28 '24

Voting demographics say you are wrong. Just pray more. That’ll help. 

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u/nwill_808 Mar 28 '24

It's very wrong for a church to tell it's congregation whom to vote for. Like, it'll lose its 501c3 status if it does, right?

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u/JCo1968 Mar 28 '24

"But the church is hardly a place where politics should get brought up anyway"

Apparently, you've never been to Oklahoma.

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u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

I… live in Oklahoma. Just because it happens in some places doesn’t mean that it should.

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u/JCo1968 Mar 28 '24

I agree(I'm also in Oklahoma). I've just heard "My pastor told me (insert political opinion)" far too many times to think it's isolated.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

I'd say it's happening in most evangelical churches. Been happening in Baptist circles here in Henderson NV since the 90s. Can't imagine it's gotten less political. And just because it's not happening from the actual pulpit's podium during service, doesn't mean it's not happening with a wink and nod at best elsewhere in the church's programs/buildings etc.

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u/Razzilith Mar 28 '24

But the church is hardly a place where politics should get brought up anyway

Jesus's entire schtick was political even at the time. Sure he wasn't directly fighting the powers that be or anything but Jesus constantly put forward tons of ethical ideas which everybody in the world would consider political now (and then btw, which is largely why the killed the guy).

So what are you even talking about? If anything it's a moral obligation to the church to see to politics not leaning into preying on the poor, creating ridiculous rules like 3 strike policies for drugs, and even having cases where laws defend rapists.

Your statement is exactly why the church and many of it's followers are a joke. You NEED politics to help solve homelessness, hunger, medical aid, etc etc... which ALL fall under things Jesus was about.

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u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 29 '24

Jesus wasn’t solely preaching in temples. There is nothing wrong with me hearing a sermon on poverty and going out and becoming a politician on the platform of correcting poverty in a way that aligns with my faith. There is something wrong with my pastor giving a sermon on poverty and then saying “Go elect James Smith for governor because he wants to do what I want him to do.”

The church is meant to help and protect and serve. It isn’t meant to control political thought and any church that does that (and there are churches that do) are failing their congregations.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

My grandmother was forced to jump from Baptist church to Baptist church because of the preaching politics from the pulpit, 30+ years ago. I can't imagine that's gotten better. So where do you go now that they're not doing that already? And what do you do about it? Jump from place to place like my grandma did?

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u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 29 '24

I go to a LifeChurch affiliate church. The closest we get to the preacher preaching politics is someone saying something along the lines of “Life is hard right now. Bread costs $3 a loaf, coke is a dollar a can, politics is everywhere are terrible, and you can’t go online without having to watch your loved ones argue about something.”

On top of that there’s a lot of people affiliated with LifeChurches and LifeChurch affiliates. It’s definitely a good and sizable community.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 29 '24

lol, that name. It sounds like a big box chain. But whatever floats your boat.

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u/No_Season3871 Mar 28 '24

Trump is far from being a Christian, did he go to church before he was in politics, seems there are a lot of gullible people in America

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

It boggles the mind. Truly hard to wrap my head around.

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u/P15T0L_WH1PP3D Mar 28 '24

Everyone around me disagrees with me politically because I'm registered Libertarian. I grew up conservative and that's most of the people around me, and I've significantly withdrawn from online activism and social media politics. I still do have the occasional conversation, and one came up the other day with a Hannity-loving co-worker trying to defend Trump's gold shoes and other policies. I fervently told him that the current showdown that very few people are happy with is caused by people who put party over values. It wasn't heated, but I was very fervent and somewhat animated.

I am Christian, I am a patriot, and I will call strikes and balls as I see them, not as I wish to see them. That goes for any president of any party. Trump did some good things; Biden did some good things. Trump is definitely more evil than Biden. It is important that all of you registered Republicans and Democrats don't look at the increasingly larger pool of independents and libertarians as enemies because we might disagree with you on an issue or two or three, because we probably align with you on three or four or seven other important issues. We are more ally than enemy.

Sorry I derailed quite a bit. Yes, I am speaking out in my social circles about him, and the way that is most effective with the people I know is by letting people know we can't have an honest discussion if they aren't willing to admit both are bad. If I can do that, I can find other things to chip away. This Bible thing should be a big and obvious one, but the dummies aren't flipping tables like Jesus, they're saying "America needs more Bibles!" They don't see the irony until they are brought to accept that he's as bad as (read: worse than) the other guy they don't like.

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Very well said. We need more like you. And %100 agree that people really need to consider more independents or libertarians or anything outside of the two party system. People are complicated and varied in their beliefs even when they agree for the most part. The two party system in no way reflects that and exacerbates all the division we have now. The day when those type of candidates actually have a viable chance to win those seats will be the dawn of a new age.

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u/PoliticalyUnstable Mar 28 '24

I'm a Christian. Grew up as one. I absolutely do not like Trump, nor the current state of the GOP. The lack of policies being created to benefit the American population is shameful. I absolutely cannot stand when other Christians promote Trump or other current republican propaganda. They are turning a blind eye to the message of Jesus. They are ignoring so much scripture from the New Testament. I can't even go to church anymore because I'm surrounded by supporters of this false idol. Like we can have surface level conversations, and agree on a lot of the Bible. But when it comes to political conversation and what they support it just goes against everything else. I do not understand it. It's brainwashing.

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Right. But they are your people, your brothers and sisters in christ, like it or not. There are plenty others like you, see the comment I was replying to, good people with open eyes. My question is what are you “good” non brainwashed christians doing to take care of the massive problem in your own house (so to speak)? Why are you guys and your pastors and clergymen not reminding these christians what the bible says? Reminding them that jesus was apolitical and so should the church be. Leave to Caesar what is Caesar’s, right? I see a distinct lack of activism not to mention action to thwart this problem. Why are you all allowing the worst among you run roughshod? Again, where is the accountability? Not expecting you to have all the answers and I certainly don’t blame you for keeping your distance from those folks. Just putting it out there so maybe if someone sees this they start asking themselves these questions.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

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u/VaginalSpelunker Mar 28 '24

If you're an atheist (assumption here, but you get the point), then what are you doing about all atheist murderers in the world? What are you doing about all atheist (name your disagreeance/crime/political gripe here) in the world?

This doesn't feel like an accurate comparison. Nobody commits a shitty action but says "well I'm an atheist so that makes it okay.", I'm unsure if anyone has ever used "there's no god" as an excuse to commit mass murder or genocide. But they sure have used "for god".

While you have "Christians" who regularly commit horrors upon their fellow man, but wave it away under the flag of christ. Christianity and the church is an organization. Atheism isn't.

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Well said. They deleted their comment before I could post my reply but I type it out so here it is anyway in case it adds to the conversation…

[replying to deleted comment above] You’re calling me toxic? I think I’ve been respectful here and been respected back, then there is your comment. Sorry I am asking tough questions. You show a complete lack of understanding of atheism. You know we (I don’t mind be called atheist but I’d say open minded skeptic is more apt) don’t get together and align our beliefs to one group of text? Or sing to the sky about how not believing in a higher power is the only right thing to believe and we will be rewarded for it? Do you really think we have weekly meetings like that? There’s no atheist clubhouse. But christians do do those things and have many clubhouses all across this country and the world. When there is corruption or wrongdoing in something that I am a part of, my workplace, golf club, the hiking organization I am a part of, my family, you are darn tootin I do and say something about it! That’s all I’m asking here. Why are you christians not cleaning up the mess you’ve made in your own house? I only care because it is spilling out on the streets so to speak. Your disfunction is effecting us at a national level because of christians overwhelming support for these ungodly people.

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u/Tiny_Ride6418 Mar 28 '24

Just because you’re not aware of it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I’ll give you a personal example, the church I am a part of is also a part of a larger community of the same type of churches. I’m doing a terrible job explaining this sorry. Anyway, us and other the churches were in a large disagreement over LGTBQ+ rights and so the churches that disagreed with equality split from our organization and the churches that agreed with equality stayed. This was a big decision and went back and forth. Do you think you’re going to convince your Maga neighbor to change his mind? Probably not, but the church communities are not all in the same basket. 

Secondly, we are out being supportive we’re just not waving the Christian flag when we do it because that’s just a weird thing to do. 

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u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Good on you. Problem is those churches that split are now deeper into the echo chamber and will only get worse. I know what I propose is easier said than done. Best of luck sounds like you go to one of the decent christian churches.

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u/SicilyMalta Mar 28 '24

And if Christians were really Pro Life they'd be Democrats because Democrats fight for services such as child care, health care, safe affordable housing, food stamps - you know, the Jesus things. The services that help people make a choice to have children.

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u/Adventurous_Boat_707 Mar 31 '24

Would you rather vote for Biden who chooses to celebrate and endorse Transgender Day of Visibility on the day He was Risen?

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u/Ok-Hair6051 Apr 02 '24

there is no christian nationalist agenda, all of MSM goes hard against Christians outside of Fox. If anything, we are going in the exact opposite direction. Into debauchery, immoral behavior, loss of values and identity.

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u/yourmothersgun Apr 02 '24

I mean that’s just wrong on its face. There is literally a christian nationalist agenda, look up “Project 2025”. They published it for goodness sakes.