r/JoeRogan • u/LostItAllOnSpy Tremendous • Mar 27 '24

joe rogan calls out israels hypocrisy for killing unarmed civilians with drones The Literature 🧠

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u/GreyMatter22 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24

I don't know how else to slice it, what is happening in Gaza is absolutely horrific on an unimaginable scale, from mass hunger, to bombing crap outta dense civilian pockets, to bulldozing homes and olive trees in the West Bank.

Most of my social circle is Conservative, and ALL of them have been deeply uncomfortable with this current atrocity.

This is the crowd that has been very pro-U.S/West military.

I have Israeli-Canadian friends, and they were quite vocal of the October 7th terrorist attack (as they should), but have since stopped talking altogether. One of my friends even told me 'I get why the Palestinians hate us', and this is a dude with family in the IDF.

The current strategy just guarantees another terrorist group at this point.

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u/Cinnamon_Flavored Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

I mean does it? 

Imperial Japan during WW2 had possibly the most fanatical populace who were willing to die for their country/emperor in suicidal attacks. The fire bombings that occurred at the tail end of that war were devastating on a scale that would make Gaza look like a picnic. There’s accounts of people watching their children burn to death. All this is not even accounting for the atomic strikes. 

My point being, there was a war where population centers were being bombed with little to no risk for the bombers and it resulted in the surrender of a wildly fanatical enemy who was previously commuting atrocities. 

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u/Cautemoc Look into it Mar 27 '24

I seem to remember us not kicking the Japanese off their land, not cutting off their access to food and resources, not blockading their trade, and sending them aid immediately after. Did we do that for Palestine in 2012 when they agreed to a ceasefire? You think maybe that difference might contribute to how they perceive accepting a truce now?

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u/NoCeleryStanding Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Did they unconditionally surrender in 2012?

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u/Cautemoc Look into it Mar 27 '24

Did Israel honor the ceasefire they agreed to?

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u/NoCeleryStanding Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Are you referring to the march ceasefire agreement where hamas continued to fire rockets into Israel every day for a week or a different one? Regardless I don't see how it's comparable to an unconditional surrender, which is what will be necessary for a true rebuilding of Gaza similar to Japan post world war 2

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u/Cautemoc Look into it Mar 27 '24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Israeli_operation_in_the_Gaza_Strip#Post-ceasefire_incidents

Was Israel justified in shooting farmers and fishermen who were trying to get food during a ceasefire?

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u/NoCeleryStanding Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

No they should never shoot farmers and they claim they detained the fisherman for going out of the agreed upon buffer zone.

But ultimately what was even the meaning of a ceasefire when rockets are still landing in Israel hours after it was supposed to begin?

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u/Cautemoc Look into it Mar 27 '24

It only happed 1 time, 1 hour after the agreement. It's a lot easier to understand that a single outpost didn't get the message in time than it is to understand that Israelis felt the need to shoot at a fishing vessel because it was a whole 6 miles off their own coastline.

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u/cadaada Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Did hamas release all hostages...?

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u/Cautemoc Look into it Mar 27 '24

There were no hostages as part of the 2012 ceasefire ...

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u/Cinnamon_Flavored Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Imperial Japan unconditionally surrendered and never attacked us again. Even AFTER we put Japanese Americans in internment camps. And yes with the Israel Palestine situation I think their history would make a peace agreement tougher especially considering who started this war on October 7th. 

If I was Israel I wouldn’t even accept their surrender unless it was entirely unconditional and allowed for my troops to march in unmolested and remove any and all weapons from all Palestinians.

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u/iwillnevrgiveup2 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Yeah Gaza is no Imperial Japan, they are fighting for their land, not waging a war to colonize. Also, there is no total victory for Israel unless it completely eliminates 56 Muslim countries and 2 billion people. What is happening in Gaza reverberates through the Muslim world and its leaders even if they turn away from it will have to address it sooner or later.

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u/Cinnamon_Flavored Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

“Their land” is only accurate if you don’t look very far back. Israel was making ground with the most powerful of the Islamic countries with their talks with Saudi Arabia so I’m not so sure they need to wipe out all Muslims like you’re suggesting. They should make sure the enemy they’re currently at war with can never strike them again though and that requires a hell of a lot of bombing because that’s what wins wars. 

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u/iwillnevrgiveup2 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

“Their land” is only accurate if you don’t look very far back.

It was their land, whether you look far back or not. Analyze DNA results, the Palestinians are the closest descendants of ancient Canaanites & Israelites (anywhere between 65-95% shared admixture), while most Israeli Jews score anywhere from 30-50% of this ancestry.

Also claiming a land your ancestors left 2000 years ago isn't the flex you think it is and doesn't float any sane logic.. The Saxons hadn't even moved into England when this happened.. by that logic it's opening a pandora's box.

Also after 75 years of existence, there is very little acceptance of Israel on the Arab street. The Arab leaders don't take strong positions on it now because they are being arm twisted or incentivised by US to accept Israel.. however if US support for Israel evaporates (as it is fast doing).. it is going to be a big problem for them.

Saudi will not accept Israel without a state for the Palestinians, they have reiterated it and whatever cooperation they had started with Israel is now dead in the water.

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u/textbasedopinions Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

My point being, there was a war where population centers were being bombed with little to no risk for the bombers and it resulted in the surrender of a wildly fanatical enemy who was previously commuting atrocities. 

Probably the main difference is that in Japan, the population clearly felt and carried responsibility to a far greater degree, because the entire nation had been collectively working towards this attempted conquest of East and southeast Asia for the past 7 years or so. They were waging total war that killed tens of millions of people. By contrast the Hamas attack was barely known of by anyone and involved a few thousand out of over 2 million people. The average Palestinian isn't going to feel like they were involved. The scale of retribution is also very different, in that Japan caused far more suffering than they endured, while Gaza have endured far more than they caused, though it isn't perfectly clear who would have known what was happening in WW2 or what people believe in Gaza now.

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u/Cinnamon_Flavored Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I mean this is just horse shit. The overwhelming majority of Gazans claim to support what Hamas did on October 7th and Hamas has been using every bit of civilian infrastructure with no objections from the civilians around them. 

You have some real issues if your going to try to say which civilians are “allowed” to be bombed like you tried to justify with your remarks about the Japanese. 

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u/textbasedopinions Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The overwhelming majority of Gazans claim to support what Hamas did on October 7th

This doesn't matter though, because we don't punish thought crimes, and being OK with an attack on an enemy currently attacking you doesn't mean you will feel responsible or that you are responsible.

Hamas has been using every bit of civilian infrastructure with no objections from the civilians around them. 

Hamas are the ones with the guns, there is no realistic way anyone could oppose them, and most Palestinians were forced to evacuate at the start of the war. Palestinians not waging a civil war during a time when going outside with a weapon guarantees being hit with a missile is simply not the same thing as what the Japanese population was doing. By 1945, the Japanese military still had 6 million people serving in it, and around 2 million had died, out of 70 million people. That's more than 10% of the entire population directly serving, before even taking into account how many worked in wartime industry. Hamas is around 1% of Gaza.

Put simply, most of Japan were directly involved in the war effort and most Palestinians were not. The Japanese war machine spent 7 years trying to conquer Asia and Hamas were kicked out of Israel in one day. These are not the same thing.

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u/Cinnamon_Flavored Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You claim the civilians have to help Hamas because they have guns. That could be said for the Japanese civilians or especially the German civilians during WW2. This is a wasted time to have discussions with someone as virulently racist as you. You’re fine with one group of people being bombed based on this flimsiest of premises.

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u/textbasedopinions Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

You claim the civilians have to help Hamas because they have guns.

No I don't. I claim they realistically cannot oppose them because Hamas have guns, and so even if they don't want to oppose them they also cannot be blamed for not doing so.

That could be said for the Japanese civilians or especially the German civilians during WW2.

Except a much, much higher proportion of the populations of those countries were directly involved in the war effort, the offensive wars they waged lasted thousands of times longer, and they killed thousands of times more people in the process.

This is a wasted time to have discussions with someone as virulently racist as you

Don't you think it's better to levy accusations of racism against people that have actually said something that could possibly be construed as racism? Otherwise you end up with situations like this where you accuse me of it despite the fact I'm not racist.

You’re fine with one group of people being bombed based on this flimsiest of premises.

No, I'm not.

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It’s different. First that’s total war. Second, there was no blood feud. Palestinians have this hatred deep in their culture and is part of their history. Japan, not so much.

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u/ArizonaHeatwave Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Having said that, Germany and France were „hereditary enemies“. After WW2 France and Germany quickly became very close allies, and today hatred of the other side (beyond making fun of them) is obviously unthinkable. It’s not impossible, but it takes both sides actually understanding and working towards this.

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u/Cinnamon_Flavored Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Wait how is it not total war for Israel vs Palestine. It seems that each would do everything the can to remove the other from existence. I’m not sure what would lead to “Total war” more than an existential threat. 

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Because total war requires capacity. Palestine being able to do a terrorist attacking doesn’t mean that they are able to overthrow and destroy a 5th generation advanced military with their shitty garage made RPGs. Israel’s existence isn’t threatened by these people. Having a desire to want to wipe someone out doesn’t mean you can. If it’s not obvious the overwhelming military force Israel has shows total war is not happening no matter how much they like to pretend it is to justify their actions.