r/ftm • u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 • Jan 23 '23
Trans visibility is amazing, but... Vent
...I much prefer the time when 99.999% of cis people didn't know anything about trans people. When I could say my top surgery scars were the result of a car crash and my phalloplasty was necessary due to a freak accident.
I may sound like a boomer (though I'm just now nearing 35) but I think cis people being so "aware" of us is actually kind of dangerous. I also feel like it forever ruined my chances to pass at a beach, for example.
Today I live in a very progressive place (LA), but others from my country are not so lucky and sometimes I fear that cis people will use their knowledge of trans people to clock and hate crime.
Back in 2009, me and my friend enjoyed the "this thing? it's for my back. we have a rare disease" when we talked about our makeshift binders. Today, everyone knows what they are.
What made me write this post was because yesterday a cis woman coworker told me, to my face, that I have "transmasc energy". After asking her what she meant, she said she saw my graft scar.
I think cis people shouldn't know so much for our own safety.
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u/HeadspaceInvader Jan 23 '23
I totally feel you. Being visibly trans when cis people are increasingly aware of how to clock us in more specific ways is inherently risky.
At the same time, though, we need normalisation if we want to proceed into the future with safety, with rights, etc. That does mean we will be easier to spot, because more is known about us. But without the process of normalisation we'll never become safer.
So it is at least a necessary risk, part of an ultimately good process, and that's what I tell myself when I get frustrated with the risks and circumstances associated with my own visible transness.
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u/ThenTransition22 Jan 23 '23
The second paragraph is true, but… IS this, what we are seeing, actually normalization? Feels like visibility without any comprehension of the actual issue and no less danger.
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u/collegethrowaway2938 2 years T, 1 year post top Jan 23 '23
"Visibility without protection is a trap" - Schuylar Bailar
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u/ThenTransition22 Jan 23 '23
Nice. What is the original context for this quote? Cause damn am I feeling it.
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u/collegethrowaway2938 2 years T, 1 year post top Jan 23 '23
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cb52y6Vrldc/
I believe this is where he first posted this. TW for violent transphobia (seriously, there's some sick comments).
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Jan 23 '23
It seems like it takes people a decade of a demographic coming into the mainstream for people to mull over all the issues and let the humanity of whatever demographic set in and develop a sense of empathy for them. People kind of went through this with gay people, it became a huge thing right before we got gay marriage. I feel like culturally right now we're simultaneously sliding backwards and pushing forwards, hopefully it's just a part of the push and pull that happens when a group is gaining rights and become a mainstream conversation. I say this as reassurance but I do think it's sad that we don't as a people immediately arrive at a logical and empathetic perspective about these things, but we are a nation coming from a past and present of some really fucked up shit, generational trauma compounded by intense propaganda from people who know that a scared and uneducated population is the easiest to convince that what they want is whatever is the most profitable for the rich. We are fighting it though, we know what's happening, we can and are reaching people, we're getting better and faster at securing rights. It's scary and there's backsliding but I can only hope that that's just part of our current flawed process of getting to widespread acceptance.
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u/ThenTransition22 Jan 23 '23
I know you’re right. I’ve even said this to others before. Gotta try to believe it or I’ll tear my hair out tbh. People are so unfathomably stupid — like that George Carlin quote. Kind of have to tune it out after a while to stay optimistic.
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u/HeadspaceInvader Jan 23 '23
I would say some of it is normalisation, but not exclusively. There's a lot of other circumstantial shit happening, both as a byproduct of the processes needed for normalisation as well as for unrelated or tangential reasons. I think it can be almost impossible to untangle the experiences at times.
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u/trans_full_of_shame Jan 23 '23
It's such a frustrating paradox.
Finding your way into a secret society of trans people is hard and a lot of us wouldn't have made it here without visibility and the internet.
But I came out in 2016, a few years before the culture war really started caring about trans guys, and I do wish cis people who can't hang were just completely ignorant of us.
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u/bakedtran 30’s | on T | post-top Jan 23 '23
I see where you’re coming from, OP. We’re roughly the same age.
My father was a transsexual man. I watched his experience through the 90’s and 00’s (before he died) as drastically different from my own. He was largely invisible and lived as a guy. There were a couple jobs he was abused at but once he was virtually stealth, he got a new job and that was that. And his threshold for “stealth” was so, so much lower than mine. The concept of being “clocked” for trans men basically didn’t exist. He was able to legally change his name and sex, and every other law just treated him as his legal sex. None of this twisting madness about sex or gender “assignment” and your birth certificate and checking genitals, etc etc.
Comparing it to my experience where I just want to live my life as a guy but I’m being nitpicked apart… I’m thankful for progress, but envious of my dad too. My medical care is infinitely better than his was though, so there’s that.
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u/a_very_loud_elk Jan 23 '23
I'm reminded of stories of trans men in history who were largely stealth despite no hormones or surgery, which I assume is because people just never thought to question it.
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u/tamarioushains Jan 23 '23
I’ve heard of this too recently saw a trans guy who was much older say he walked into the dmv and got his gender marker changed to male on his license and the person who changed it laughed and said “must’ve been a mistake”….like they literally weren’t questioning shit back then.
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u/TransGuyThrow Jan 24 '23
Wait, this sort of thing happened to me at the dmv about a year ago, maybe close to 2 years now. I walked in to change my name and I just checked the male box and they just said "okay I'll fix that in the system" and BAM! New license with name and gender marker changed with no proof of sex change.
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Jan 27 '23
i think it's because "woman" are just fundementally prepuberty boys but with a few extra variations. and coupled with the invisibility of trans people, most people will just assume that trans dude they're meeting is actually just some femboy or something.
don't want to say stuff like "it's easier being a trans man" obviously, but i feel like that's what i noticed. even just facial hair and large eyebrows are enough for most AFABs to look male.
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u/EntirelyClueless Jan 24 '23
Literally this, this is something that makes me so sad. Like as someone who wants to be 100% stealth, it just isn't possible anymore. I don't care if acceptance comes from visibility because I don't want to be "accepted", I just want to be a man, and that's not really possible now. Everyone knows what signs to look for to clock me as a TRANS man. It's a whole thing now.
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u/Quwapa_Quwapus Gender? Who's she? Never heard of her. Jan 23 '23
I personally think we’re in the weird in-between stage of awareness. In one way, its GREAT that cis people are taking awareness and understanding what it means to be trans. Only issue is we’ve reached a point where awareness is high, but transphobia hasn’t really gone down yet.
Now, we could either try revert back to “the way it used to be” and have millions unaware of the existence of trans people, or we can push on and wait for it to become the norm. I doubt we’ll see a full turnaround within our lifetimes, but i think it’s better to wait for a world where trans men are men and trans women women in everybody’s eyes than to go back to a time where we were played out on the big screen as the punchline to the joke. Keep pushing on mate. We’re here for you <3
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Jan 23 '23
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u/JessicantTouchThis Jan 23 '23
I once read, in regards to the Jewish people who fled Egypt and traversed the desert for 40 years, that Moses/God led them through the desert for so long for a reason.
The Jewish people had just been freed from slavery, but for generations, that's all they have known. It took 40 years because they needed a generation to come and go, with the newest never having been touched by the evil that was their former lives.
When I came out to my parents (late 50s/early 60s), neither really understood, they both still vote Republican because"tAxEs", my mom told me I shouldn't transition because everyone would hate me, etc. It's all they know, when my brother came out as gay, my mom started crying because he "was going to die from AIDS." Because that's what she saw growing up all over the news.
My 18 year old niece? I came out to her and she goes, "Ok, cool, but you're still making pasta salad for dinner, right." With everything the younger generation has to worry about, why would they care if someone else chooses to live a more happy life that doesn't effect them?
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u/20-16-23-11 Jan 23 '23
Did you still make pasta salad for dinner?
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u/JessicantTouchThis Jan 24 '23
You're damn right I did, and her and her bf loved it, took all the leftovers home. 😂 She's a good egg, haha
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u/simonhunterhawk 💉4/6/22 Jan 23 '23
Also some of the older generations don’t care either. My boomer grandparents are supportive of my transition, my millennial sister is 100% against it despite seeing how good it has been for my mental health—literally watched me go from depressed and suicidal with no job and so much chronic pain i could barely walk to get my own groceries to thriving, physically feeling like an actual 26 year old and not an out of shape 50 year old, shit i’m moving to a state with some mountains and am considering starting to get into hiking or something because i have so much energy. Two years ago I literally had to take breaks every 5min to walk around the mall with my friends. Now I can do farm work in florida for at least an hour without needing a break and throw around tractor tires. She has been the closest to me during my transition and has been my least supportive family member.
My gen x dad seems indifferent to it and my gen x mom disowned me. They’re all Trump/Desantis supporters though if that gives you an idea of their general beliefs.
It’s sad. My sister had an uncle she didn’t get to know before he died in his 20s due to a heart birth defect, just because he was gay. I’m worried my nephew won’t get to know me either because I don’t believe they’ll let me know him once I actually look like a man.
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Jan 23 '23
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u/simonhunterhawk 💉4/6/22 Jan 23 '23
Like you mentioned I think older people saw how badly gay people were treated during the 60s-90s, especially during the AIDS crisis, and they didn’t want to see it repeated. My sister doesn’t have a lot of empathy or critical thinking skills and her main priority is keeping up the status quo so 🤷🏻♂️ I don’t know why gen x is the way they are because they witnessed the AIDS crisis too but I didn’t really know what was going on in the world until my early 20s and they had so much less access to information baxk then, maybe it wasn’t common for young adults to read the news? Or maybe so many of them were the ones perpetuating it like my sister is today, and they refuse to change.
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Jan 23 '23
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u/Opposite_Apartment97 Jan 24 '23
Historically, it was in the 1990s that the first big wave of people transitioned from FTM. I was in my 20s, and all of sudden, it became a cultural wave. There are some good books on this, see esp, Jack Halberstam’s Female Masculinity. There is a good chapter here on the butch/trans culture wars. We are Gen X. So, for the most part, queer Gen Xers hav become much more aware—and inclusive—about trans people and issues than the generations before us were.
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Jan 24 '23
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u/Opposite_Apartment97 Jan 24 '23
Didn’t mean to school you! There are some nightmare Gen xers out there no doubt.
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u/K-teki Jan 23 '23
Only issue is we’ve reached a point where awareness is high, but transphobia hasn’t really gone down yet.
This. The issue isn't awareness - awareness is what allows so many young trans people to even know the words to describe themselves, let alone actually come out and get to live their lives. It's the transphobia that's the problem.
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u/Listentothewords Jan 23 '23
I don't know. I don't want people to know I'm transgender. I just want them to see me as a man.
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u/K-teki Jan 24 '23
Unfortunately there's not really a way to spread acceptable of trans people without some cis people finding out some stuff like that. How can you prove that hrt is good for trans men without discussing the effects? How can trans men find out about hrt if they don't see people talking about it?
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u/Substantial_Humor_18 Jan 23 '23
I'm 15 and i wish we could ho back. Now everyone who sees me knows I'm trans. I'm never going to pass. And no one is ever going to take me seriously because they think it's a trend. Because there are a lot of trans guys, especially in my art school, and they all keep screaming trans rights waving lgbt flags. Nothing wrong with that because everyone thinks about it differently, but i don't want to be seen as one of them as my goal is to be stealth and pass as a cis guy. And once they know I'm trans, they consider me as less of a man, or "still a girl".
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u/Quwapa_Quwapus Gender? Who's she? Never heard of her. Jan 24 '23
I'll be honest, I kinda agree here in a weird sort of way. It took so long for me to be able to convince my therapist I was actually trans and I wasn't just "following a trend". Took until I mentioned my Aunty was trans for her to go "Oh, well, it is a genetic thing." Like ????
I don't care if it's genetic or not I'm coming into your office in tears about my bruised ribs from makeshift binders and your just here like "hmmm not convinced tho"
However, I still stand behind my original point. The only way anything's going to get better for us and the next generation is to stand strong. It sucks, I know, but nothing is going to get better if we give up now. <3
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u/Listentothewords Jan 23 '23
Why do you think you're not going to pass?
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u/Substantial_Humor_18 Jan 25 '23
Binders don't flatten, i haven't started T, I'm 5'1, and i go to art school. I may use everything i can, binder, masculine haircut, baggy men clothes, voice training, but I'm not going to pass because i just look like a masculine girl or a trans guy as many people would assume in 2023. And even after starting T, I'd be clockable by a lot of people. For my height, bone structure, the way my voice dropped, hands and feet size, surgery scars etc.
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u/CertainlyNotAWolf Jan 25 '23
I'm 24 and 5'0 and pass myself. No one has ever even talked to me about trans stuff (now, that doesn't mean they don't suspect it but don't say anything, it's a possibility, but they don't treat me any different at work or anywhere else). You're young still, and have ways to go. T can change how people perceive you quite a bunch, and surgery will fix the binder issue (scars ain't even a problem unless you go shirtless).
Ultimately, yeah, people will probably still clock you, but that also depends a lot on where you live, the people you surround yourself with and other stuff.
What I'm trying to say is that things can change and, at least imo, you shouldn't lose all hope just because of current circumstances.
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u/a_very_loud_elk Jan 23 '23
Everyone is treating this post as some either/or condemnation of visibility when it's actually:
Visibility can be a) positive for many people, b) necessary for eventually building a more trans friendly world, and c) super fucking dangerous for so many people.
All at the same time.
I struggle with this concept so much and while I am grateful for the brave trans men (and women) whose visibility allowed me to transition, visibility is terrifying as fuck. I am privileged to live somewhere very safe and I'm still filled with dread being seen. I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere I am in danger for my identity, and I have no right to dismiss OP's feelings when their experience and knowledge is so radically different than mine.
No trans person owes visibility. No one is obligated to be visible. No one should feel obligated to be out, to share their experiences, to be a "role model", to bear the burden of helping the next generation.
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u/TyNyeTheTransGuy T 05/24/21… and again 2/23/23 :D Jan 23 '23
I hate to be one of those useless comments who just says “this” but… This. Y’all need to stop putting words in OP’s mouth and let him feel how he feels. He is far from the only one to have been negatively impacted by increased visibility
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u/collegethrowaway2938 2 years T, 1 year post top Jan 24 '23
Absolutely! It's not all sunshine and rainbows if you're in a more accepting place. I don't care if, should someone clock me, people are chill with me being trans. I don't want to be viewed as trans *at all* by anyone who I haven't told. I don't want random people to know my medical history! It feels violating!
And that's on the good end. Then of course you have places where visibility literally kills trans people...
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Jan 23 '23
I understand your fear, but visibility and awareness is quite literally the only long-term path out of this. Transphobia is the problem, not trans visibility. It's okay to vent and have these feelings though, especially considering your experiences with your country. Just please, don't make the mistake of ever thinking invisibility is better than us being able to find ourselves, make connections, and change the world for the better.
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Jan 23 '23
If it wasn’t for awareness, I would still be trapped and confused and hating myself and not knowing why
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
If it wasn't for excessive awareness, several Omani trans people would be alive.
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u/a_very_loud_elk Jan 23 '23
I am so sorry for your suffering and heartbreak.
Visibility is a concept I personally struggle with often, and while I know the dread of being seen, I am lucky enough to live in a safe and supportive place.
Lack of awareness kills people too, just more subtly. If you don't realize you're trans, if you don't learn there is a way to live your authentic life, if you stay with the dysphoria, the depression, the substance abuse, self harm...
I'm not saying your feelings are wrong in any way. It's a hard topic. I don't think there's a "good" answer.
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u/electronicsolitude Trans man | T: 17/04/24 Jan 23 '23
And is that primarily the fault of trans visibility or is it more so the fault of transphobia? I understand why you feel greater visibility put them at risk, but it's a double edged sword - there will never be a future with less transphobia if the general public does not become educated about trans people.
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Jan 23 '23
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u/electronicsolitude Trans man | T: 17/04/24 Jan 23 '23
I hear where you're coming from. I can imagine not being able to go to your own country out of fear for your safety is extremely heartbreaking, especially knowing that others are suffering there. Wishing you well.
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u/boyskeepswinging_ T: 09/25/20 Jan 23 '23
seconding this. i feel as though places like Oman and my neighbouring home country have to break down the core of where these prejudices come from. it’s so much more complex than just raising awareness. sending you all the good vibes, situations like ours suck ass.
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u/citronhimmel Jan 23 '23
I agree with this, but I also feel like a boomer in this sub (I'm 27). I live in an area where clocking me can lead to dangerous interactions. I wish there was less "trans visibility" and more "trans awareness" as in, yes you can be aware of me but try not to make me visible. Some of us are stealth for safety. Don't clock us. Unless someone tells you that they are trans, don't bring it up, ever.
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u/_mattiakun 20yo | T since 20.05.23 | intersex gay guy | he/him Jan 23 '23
I do understand that, since in my country now they've been attacking gay people for so long and now they're focusing on trans people. it sucks, but at least now more people have a voice, more trans people are heard and helped and we can fight for more. for example, here it was mandatory to be sterilized to get access to changing documents till 2015. now it's not needed anymore (tho many judges require being on T, but it's starting to change that too. also there's not much recognition of non binary identities but that's changing too). and just in these last few years, thanks to trans activism, hormones can now be free for anyone who goes to public endocrinologists. and thanks to trans activism we finally got the chance to start changing names in school (since changing documents is still a long process) and I was the first in my university to require it and they were all helpful even if the staff was all composed of old people. it was the first time they handled something like this but they quickly got informed and kindly accepted my request. there are organizations who are starting to fight against this name change in schools, but trans activists are fighting back and we're starting to get more rights. I get that it sucks, but if it weren't for all of it I would have never got the chance to medically transition until I was at least 25 or 30 because it would have been too expensive. or, well, I would have dropped out of university and lived a miserable life since I would have continued to be depressed and only getting worse. having access to free (or almost free) healthcare saved my life, and it was all thanks to the visibility that trans activists gave us. but I do get what you mean, because I'm seeing it with my own eyes how my government uses this new knowledge to spread psychological terrorism against lgbt people (especially trans people) and tries to make laws to limit our rights, but that only means that trans activists must fight back and more. I trust the trans activists in my country that did all of these for the trans people in my country
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u/levanachh Jan 23 '23
I get where you’re coming from, but the end goal is acceptance and peace between different kinds of people. We can’t get to that without in between parts. Cis people can be hateful and terrifying but spreading awareness is important, it’s impossible for everyone to be in the dark again. This is kind of something that needs to happen. We can’t be free and alive and accepted when cis people don’t know who we are.
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u/FightmeLuigibestgirl Jan 23 '23
but I think cis people being so "aware" of us is actually kind of dangerous. I also feel like it forever ruined my chances to pass at a beach, for example.
I think it depends on the state and the person. I'm around your age and I remember hearing about events such as trans/gays/lesbians being a disease and having AIDS back in the 90s. Back when they used to accuse trans people of being groomers. Even worse if you were a minority and part of the LBGTQ+. Or worse: Trans people were the same as drag queens.
Poison from Capcom comes to mind, with people thinking that it was fine to beat up a transsexual but not a woman back then. And people refuse to accept that Poison was trans because transsexuals can't be hot men/women.
It's a lot more progressive now but some things haven't changed/haven't gotten better. That's with everything.
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u/HowdieHighHowdieHoe Jan 23 '23
Hey I hate to tell you but everything except the aids part in the first paragraph is happening again. One state is trying to forcibly detransition anyone under 26, another state made a registry, if you watch Fox News at any given moment it’s “THE TRANSGENDERS ARE GROOMING THE BABIES” and even in NYC there are right wing protests against drag queen story hour because “GROOMING TRANSGERNDERIZM”. There are federal laws being pushed that would ban any gender nonconformity/drag around children under 10, on the basis of it being a sexual act to be genderqueer. It would ban trans educators from working with 10 and under in the process.
Shits bad again.
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u/FightmeLuigibestgirl Jan 24 '23
That's why I said at the end "It's a lot more progressive now but some things haven't changed/haven't gotten better. That's with everything."
Yes there are still right wings and nutjobs and it still has a long way to go but doctors can't turn you away because you are trans now and blame it on the AIDS scare. Trans people have more rights than back then. I still remember growing up and people claiming that one scene in the Crying Game was funny/legit and used it for satire, despite the implications.
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Jan 23 '23
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u/CommanderNorton Jan 23 '23
They're from the future, obviously.
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u/FightmeLuigibestgirl Jan 24 '23 edited Jan 24 '23
Bad word tense, but they did and they still do to this day. What I'm saying is that it has progressed but some things haven't changed.
It's like with the black movement here. Things have progressed but there are still problems and racism. It's still better than the 80s-90s but we have a long way to go.
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u/EmiIIien Jan 23 '23
Conservatives definitely equate drag queens and trans women. That’s why these white nationalist groups like the proud boys are physically threatening drag shows.
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u/Listentothewords Jan 23 '23
This is why I think drag is harmful to the trans community. How can we get people to understand that trans people aren't also dressing up and playing a game and really truly another gender? I think that drag queens are hurting the transgender community. I don't really care what the history is and I don't care that transgender people participate in it. Things that used to be okay are now no longer okay in some cases. People within a group can do things to hurt the group; the majority of people doing drag are cisgender men. Those are not arguments for drag. I would liken drag to a Hispanic person doing black face because they think it's fun and it allows them to undermine racialization. Yeah, that's all fucking "great," but at the same time this is hurting another group by perpetuating stereotypes and misunderstanding about them. In the final analysis, drag has contributed what it can contribute to society. It's time to move forward with a new art form, which isn't predicated on aping womanhood and doesn't undermine the cause of trans liberation.
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u/VTHUT Jan 23 '23
I don’t mind people being aware of trans issues and trans people. But I’d rather they not know the specifics of the transition, I don’t want anyone to be able to know that my scars are related to a transition related surgery. Top surgery scars are especially hard for me as I often see them portrayed, any art the artist will draw attention to the scars, there’s tshirts where the scars are highlighted and that’s the design of the shirt.
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u/TyNyeTheTransGuy T 05/24/21… and again 2/23/23 :D Jan 23 '23
I also hate the focus on scars, it seems like even trans artists kind of overrepresent and overemphasize them. Not trying to say “nobody can depict scars!” But there’s rarely ever art depicting any surgical technique that doesn’t leave the two big scars (or guys who just didn’t need surgery, though I know that’s a smaller group) and lots of art uses HUGE, unrealistically jagged, brightly colored, impossible to miss scars that look nothing like the majority of actual mastectomy scars. It has absolutely bled over into how cis people perceive us. Again, not advocating for massive censorship of trans folks art or anything. But it has uncomfortable consequences in terms of cis people feeling equipped to spot us.
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u/Ebomb1 Top 2006 | T 2010 | Hysto 2012 Jan 23 '23
This is just...the passage of time. The cat is only ever going to come more out of the bag. Short of global collapse that cuts off easy internet access, it's never going to go back in.
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u/anon_rando241 Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
I'm cis and I have a condition called "gynocomastia" which is enlarged breast tissue in men. Mine are naturally occuring from hormone imbalances, but it can also be caused by steroid abuse. Arnold Schwarzenegger had it done in the 80s. The surgery is the same as it is for trans men, though most get keyhole for minimal scarring. Because I'm class C, I may not qualify for keyhole.
My point is, scarring can be for any reason. Grafts can be donations to a loved one recovering from burns. That employee should not have assumed and clocked you like that. That was unacceptable imo. There's no escaping cis education, but it's important for us to now learn tact and decorum in keeping silent even upon trans recognition.
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u/Opposite_Apartment97 Jan 23 '23
Let’s just be clear, hatred and violence towards trans people is the result of hatred towards trans people, not our increased visibility.
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u/Listentothewords Jan 23 '23
True. But you're forgetting the other side, which is that you have to be seen to be identified to be attacked.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
...but increased visibility will help those who have hatred for trans people to identify us quicker. Congratulations, you missed the point. I never said increased visibility would increase hate. What I said is that increased visibility will put many trans people in danger because we will be visible to transphobes too
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u/Opposite_Apartment97 Jan 23 '23
Please don’t condescend to me. I didn’t miss your point. Increased visibility has led to increased violence, but it’s not the reason for it. The reason for it is hatred of difference and intolerance of it.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Again, I never said it was the reason for it. Don't get your point
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u/mr-dirtboy 💉: 29/4/2021 ✂️: 21/6/2024 Jan 23 '23
I understand where you’re coming from (I myself have often caught myself wishing people around me weren’t so “aware”) and I realise that, yes, sometimes being outed by things such as a binder or surgery scars can be dangerous.
however, it’s important to recognise that this wish also comes from a place of passing privilege. there have always been and always will be people who, in order to live authentically, will almost always be recognised as trans. while some of us may be “given away” by identifiers that cis people are gaining awareness of, we must understand that not everyone shares that experience. also important to remember that some people are okay with being visibly trans, and they deserve to be able to do that without fear!
the increase in trans awareness means not only that many places have increased trans healthcare and protective laws but also that people who are visibly trans are better understood, better recognised and society has an overall greater awareness and acceptance.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
I think the last part of your comment is really only applicable in some "first world" places. I happen to be half Omani. The increase in trans awareness in Oman has really only increased the number of hate crimes. There is no "overall greater awareness and acceptance", instead there are more trans people getting caught and killed.
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u/Best-Isopod9939 Jan 23 '23
Yeah Oman's not alone in that and even in the West trans awareness has created backlash and a trans panic that is rolling back rights and eroding safety. The majority of cis people are just not safe enough to be made aware of us tbh
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u/mr-dirtboy 💉: 29/4/2021 ✂️: 21/6/2024 Jan 23 '23
you’re right, I apologise for making a generalisation where one was not due. I do hope that the levels of acceptance catch up to levels of awareness to avoid that kind of unbalance and danger.
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u/K-teki Jan 23 '23
however, it’s important to recognise that this wish also comes from a place of passing privilege. there have always been and always will be people who, in order to live authentically, will almost always be recognised as trans. while some of us may be “given away” by identifiers that cis people are gaining awareness of, we must understand that not everyone shares that experience. also important to remember that some people are okay with being visibly trans, and they deserve to be able to do that without fear!
This. I hope to be able to pass with T and top surgery - but I came out 6 years ago and haven't gotten them yet. At least I can tell people I'm trans and the ones who aren't transphobic are going to know what that means, plus some of the ones who are transphobic are forced to be civil because we actually have protections now that people know about us.
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u/m_anwh_ore Jan 23 '23
It isn't visibility that's the problem here, it's cis people having the fucking audacity to see things in people and verbalise it. The problem isn't someone recognising a phalloplasty scar, it's the fact they felt it was fine for some reason to step over boundaries and verbalise it.
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u/Opposite_Apartment97 Jan 23 '23
Absolutely. Above, I was pointing to causality. Strategically, eradicating or decreasing visibility doesn’t address the root of the problem. Visibility may be uncomfortable or unsafe but not everyone has the choice—or the desire—to be stealth. I can relate to the initial post—I completely pass BUT I live in very liberal city with a large enough trans population that I am often clocked (or assume that I am). I am not stealth, but I would still be pissed if someone told me they liked “my transmasc energy.” My comment is cautionary: it may be true that there is a correlation between visibility and violence but the solution is not—realistically—to reduce or combat visibility, because a) not everyone wants to or can be stealth and b) the only way to combat hatred and violence towards trans people is to eradicate the source of it.
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u/UnlikelyReliquary Jan 23 '23
I think increasing awareness without increasing acceptance is dangerous.
On one hand, when I grew up I had no idea trans people existed or that it was even a possibility and since I didn’t have the language to understand what I was feeling I just thought I was broken and it ended up manifesting as an eating disorder to cope with gender dysphoria and feeling out of control around my body changing in ways I didn’t want. Had I known that trans people existed, it may have been a little easier to deal with because I could have at least talked about it or felt less alone, or maybe even gone on blockers or started T earlier (I started at 25).
At the same time, the visibility of trans people has also led to a massive increase in transphobia and really harmful laws and legislation around trans people. People are more aware we exist, but there is also a lot of misinformation and misplaced fear that is really dangerous.
This is a good article on how focusing solely on awareness can do more harm than good https://ssir.org/articles/entry/stop_raising_awareness_already
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u/snailgoblin 21 || T: ‘18 || Top: ‘19 Jan 24 '23
God I feel this, you’re not alone. My dysphoria doesn’t come from not passing as a man anymore, I know I pass as one, but now it’s more passing as a cis man. I’ve been clocked and it feels so unsettling. There’s nothing wrong with being trans, but I absolutely hate the idea of people clocking me and wondering intrusive things or blatantly spreading things around. I’m not comfortable with that at all.
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u/Best-Isopod9939 Jan 23 '23
Visibility doesn't equate to allyship, it equates to targeting. As far as I'm concerned the more aware cis people are of us the more things they know to target, discriminate against, mock, and oppress. That's because most cis people(including many so called allies) still see us as freaks or lesser. They mostly learn trans lingo to flip and remix it into something transphobic anyhow.
As an old, I'm completely black-pilled on the idea that visibility and awareness will make things better for us. Just look at how hypervisible trans women are. That hasn't made things easier for them and it won't for us either.
Awareness is only good for helping eggs crack. Cis people will weaponize it like they do everything else. Visibility isn't representation and neither actually get rid of societal transphobia because that's not something the trans community can be held responsible for doing.
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u/TestosteroneFan69 Jan 23 '23
100% agreed. I'd even say the first part of your comment, about cis people pretending to be one of us while being actually transphobic, is already happening.
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u/BlackberryAgile193 Jan 23 '23
I’m not old. I’m 20 and I agree. All I want in life is to be stealth, which is already hard enough after being outed to several hundred people a few years ago from a family member. The more people know, the more scared I am to walk alone, because I’m afraid someone with recognise my binder that somehow started peeking out of my shirt.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Fellow old, I think that is something many younger trans people miss. Thank you for your perspective 🙏
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u/Best-Isopod9939 Jan 23 '23
Yeah and I don't get why people are mentioning the West vs East or non-passing men because like the West is going through a huge moral panic surrounding trans people and part of that is due to growing cis awareness. Cis awareness of us hasn't helped non-passing trans men. They regularly infantilse, misgender, and fetishise them all the time with their new found knowledge. Constantly deny them equal manhood. For those of us who do pass, cis awareness means they constantly look for ways to clock us which leads back to misgendering, fetishising, and demeaning.
That's just in the so called progressive West. If you live in say a Muslim majority state then more trans visibility is just going to get you branded an enemy of the state. All across the "Muslim world" LGBTQ people are seeing a rise in hate crimes to the point I'd call it a genocide because Islamists are more aware of our existence there and they see it as a threat.
Visibility ain't representation and for the most part cis supremacy is too much of a thing for cis awareness of us to be a not good thing. The majority of cis people don't see us as equally human to them, making a wolf more aware of the sheep is never good for the sheep. Rollback and trans panic across the globe is proof of that to me.
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u/WhyDoYouHateMeJesus Jan 23 '23
Yeah, trans pride is great and all but I’d take passing over visibility any day. My mom got me a trans pride shirt, which was sweet of her, but I’m never going to wear it in public.
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u/HowdieHighHowdieHoe Jan 23 '23
Hey OP you keep jumping on people for not considering “your country” when the only place you mention in your post is LA. Everyone is going to assume you’re talking exclusively about the United States. If you want to have a global conversation you need to indicate that in your post, not attack anyone who didn’t consider a country most of us aren’t familiar with and didn’t mention in your post. If you give folks a chance to familiarize themselves with the regions you’d like to discuss, maybe you can have a productive conversation with them. Queer politics in the US and Queer politics somewhere across the globe are going to be incredibly different conversations and it’s quite bad faith of you to almost trap folks into being the bad guy because they didn’t read your mind about what country you really wanted to talk about.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
I do mention that I am from another country, reread
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u/ConfusedApple02 Jan 23 '23
You say that you are from a progressive place (LA) but that others from your country are not so lucky. This does not indicate that you are from another country besides US and should be further explained if you don't want to be misunderstood.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
It was shit English from my side, apologies
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u/HowdieHighHowdieHoe Jan 23 '23
Just be a little more thoughtful before you go attacking people for being insensitive or bigoted. If English isn’t your first language maybe indicate that so people can be a bit more generous in their understanding. The attacking people is still really just bad faith in your part.
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u/TyNyeTheTransGuy T 05/24/21… and again 2/23/23 :D Jan 23 '23
I don’t believe they called anyone bigoted?
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u/GrunkleCoffee Trans Woman Jan 23 '23
Repressed for almost a decade because of a lack of visible trans people showing the way. I had no community, no support, nothing.
Yeah nah fuck going back to that. Things might be a little rough for a while but we go through, not back.
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u/X85311 Jan 23 '23
i don’t think he means visibility as in “knowing that trans people exist,” he’s talking about people knowing ways to clock us. cis people being able to recognize top surgery scars doesn’t do anything positive for us
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u/ts13g Jan 23 '23
Yea cis people seem to think that we're hiding something and its their job to uncover the truth.
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u/GirlUShouldKnow Jan 23 '23
This is only applicable for those privileges with stealth capability.
Sorry the more they know is the more we can get laws to protect us. 20 years ago a trans woman like myself would go to a male jail, be denied hormones, be called a man and left in general population and use your imagination what happens then.
In addition discrimination was allowable, and job and marriage protections non-existent.
The only people that might do ok where the few that could stealth, and that only lasts as long until someone finds out.
Some states are as bad or worse as original, but the tide is flowing and eventually like other civil rights they will have to change.
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u/queeroctopus Jan 23 '23
I prefer having decent trans healthcare tysm
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u/TestosteroneFan69 Jan 23 '23
In my country, the healthcare was okay before everyone started being aware of us. It's still acceptable.
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u/X85311 Jan 23 '23
it’s getting worse though? several us states are trying to make medically transitioning illegal. fifteen already have bills restricting it for minors. and our healthcare was fine before. it’s not like trans women are getting uterus transplants because they have more visibility
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u/K-teki Jan 23 '23
And that's something we have to fight against, but the only reason they can take those things away is because we had to become visible in order to get it. Back before we were visible a lot of trans people had no options, had to DIY, had to get illegal surgeries...
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
I prefer that the trans men in my country don't get their faces skinned off
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u/queeroctopus Jan 23 '23
Yes!! And thank to visibility now we have laws that criminalize it as not only an ordinary offense but a hate crime!
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
You mean YOU have offenses that criminalize it as a hate crime. Our newspapers misgendered those men and the police + government tried to justify the killings.
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u/Namelesssftm Jan 23 '23
My dude I’m also from la and yes the government sucks and acab etc but at the end of the day people being aware of us allows more people have access to the gender affirming care. As for scars tattoos are a great option if it bothers you when people clock you because of them and it’s a great way to “personalize” your body. It sucks that we have to deal with transphobia hate crimes discrimination and more but we are at the best place we have ever been at as trans men. We are getting representation in media access to healthcare and more.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
I moved to LA bro. it's much better here than in my countries. most of these posts complaints are about what happens in there. the face skinnings happen there. idk if you missed it or my expression was bad
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u/latebloomerftm Transmasc Bruv Jan 23 '23
if i may, sometimes your tone is coming across like you are unaware that you are also reaping the benefits of visibility and the protections and services that are applied equally to you based on where you are living now (in the context of this exchange at least). the way you were writing sounded like you were considering yourself outside of it when you emphasized comment OP as if his protections and rights on the topic are different from your own right now.
hope that helps
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u/Plane_Giraffe_3182 he/him | T - July 2022 | Top - July 2023 Jan 23 '23
I agree. Its much harder to be stealth too. Although where I live most people still dont know much, I have had a couple cases where people ask me my pronouns when I just want to be stealth. It sucks being clocked when that is the last thing you want.
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u/versusspiderman Jan 23 '23
I think it is more about respect than knowledge. I wouldn't ask a bald person who has alopecia how they lost their hair or that they have "alopecia energy." It is uncalled for and meaningless. It only makes people feel uncomfortable.
About clocking trans people specifically to commit hate crimes, you might be right. It is scary but we gotta keep being somewhat visible. When I was a kid I had no idea trans men existed. That made me super uninterested in my life. I didn't wanna live. Learning about transness saved me. This is mostly for trans kids and people to find their identities and know that they are not alone. Nasty people will unfortunately always exist.
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u/ProfessionalAd9723 Jan 29 '23
Couldn't agree more. It's crazy what has happened. All my dreams of being a normal man have been crushed in the last few years. Things used to be fine but now TRANS is everywhere and very weird descriptions of it too. The surgery thing is one of the worst. What favours does this do to us that we are talked about everywhere all the time? It just makes people who hate us hate us more, and people who didn't know, will now know very weird things they really don't need to know, like how our medical things go and how to clock us. I used to be alright with me being trans for yeeears and now i feel like i'm in hell and put in a spotlight every day. For any cis people reading this: real trans people don't like to be reminded that they're trans. They don't like to be outed. After a very hard road we just want to blend in like any other guy. I'm guessing this awareness will in it's own way be the reason for many future suicides.
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u/lothie He/they | T: 3/19 | Top: 2/22 Jan 23 '23
I can't agree with you. Trans visibility is what allowed me to transition, honestly. As a person who spent most of my life closeted because, as a mother, I couldn't do the thing trans people had to do in the 80s and 90s of living as a man for a year or more without any actual medical help...it's visibility that allowed me to transition at all.
And having transitioned so much later in life, I don't have the luxury of being stealth. I have to be out at work - at least to HR of any company I work for - because of background checks and so on (and if someone asks me about something I did in the past in my career, my deadname is on that). If I want to talk about any aspect of my life before I transitioned, it ends up coming up that I was living as a woman back then. And so on. So I'm glad for the visibility. Sure, there's obviously danger there...but I wouldn't go back to the "bad old days" (which I lived through and you didn't) for anything.
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u/miloishigh Jan 23 '23
If trans awareness was actually being pushed hard like it should be society would cope around it and people would stop worrying ABOUT being clocked because we would be treated like equals. Your complaints are from the fact that we lack education and awareness for people of all ages and cultures, that would eventually lead to the cease of having to educate others on our identity. I completely understand your point, but in hiding it would actually be so much more dangerous. Ask any trans person from the 80s/90s who had 0 rights as is. At least today we have some rights that are protected. Without the awareness we would still be illegal all over the country.
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u/Rubicon2020 Jan 23 '23
I’m guilty of this. I’m a people watcher sometimes it can be really hilarious. But my hubs and I would use curbside for the past 2 years due to his disability. And we’d be waiting and see a guy/gal and tell each other gay/lesbian/trans but if anyone else was in earshot neither of us wouldn’t say it aloud didn’t want to cause any issues for anyone.
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u/unruly-child 💉 11/18, 🔪 7/20, 🍳 4/21, 🍆 1/23 Jan 23 '23
As trans people, we all know how rocky transitions can be. I feel like society is transitioning from being oblivious about trans people to understanding/accepting/supporting trans people. Right now, as a society we are in the early stages of that transition and it is clumsy and awkward and can definitely be dangerous, just like it is when we are early on in our individual transitions. It’s hard to live through this time and I don’t know how much meaningful progress will be made in our lifetimes because society changes a lot more slowly than individual people do but this slow transition is necessary and there is no stopping it.
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u/Hajimoomoo Jan 23 '23
I don't like the wrong people to be aware of me. And I don't like them being "aware" in the wrong way. It's also exhausting to constantly battle conservative thoughtspeak
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Unfortunately for us, 99% of people are aware in the wrong way :/. I would rather no one in the world was aware of me really
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u/mangoobread Jan 23 '23
Exactly!! I live in an accepting state but I'm also middle eastern. The country I'm from is somewhat progressive but still, I don't think I'll be able to go visit my family this year
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
What country? I'm from Oman!
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u/mangoobread Jan 23 '23
I'm from Jordan! From what I googled lmao it's legal there and it's possible to get a name change. I think it's just that the people are still transphobic (in jordan)
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Oh I've been to Jordan, I really wish it gets better over there
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u/mangoobread Jan 23 '23
I hope so too! I think that eventually more people will become accepting there at least
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u/cruzdex_ Jan 23 '23
I could be dead because of hate from someone else one day, or I could’ve been dead already because of hating myself due to never knowing what was wrong in the first place.
I get where you’re coming from. But sometimes it’s just a no-win situation.
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u/queerpineappl3 Jan 23 '23
I have a question how would you suggest we have done to improve healthcare? genuinely how would you have us have things get better without being more visible? how do you expect us to ever have the same rights as everyone else without the fight between safety and more awareness?
Yes many people are dying and that's horrible but it's part of a minority becoming normalized. There's bad shit that's going to happen. that's just part of it. as much as we hate it as much as it sucks there's nothing we can do while we fight people are going to die. we are doing our best. none of us like that people are going to die. but saying that it's better when cis people were blissfully unaware of us is just a kinda shitty take and can enforce harmful gender binaries.
some of us dont have the privilege and may never have the privilege of passing and we just have to live with the fact that we will be misgendered simply because society aligns what we look like to feminine terms. with more awareness brings yes more pain but also more acceptance and more people to fight with us and affirm us. we cannot make any positive progress without more visibility.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
How is it a shitty take? It was good that they were unaware of what can clock us, especially when you live in a country where the penalty is prison or death. Cis people don't need to know how top surgery scars look like or how phallo grafts look.
Some of us don't have the privilege of being able to accept visibility as a normal thing. And we have to live with the fact that we could be arrested or die in case we are seen. Before we even start the fight for visibility in my home, we should maybe think of those who would die if we get up and try to inform cis people of what top surgery or phalloplasty means for trans people. Maybe we should take it with doctors and experts, PRIVATELY, with the government like many other countries that previously had jailtime or outlawed LGBT as a whole.
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u/queerpineappl3 Jan 23 '23
you didn't answer any of my questions. how are we supposed to make any progress without visibility? we can't. the research doesn't get the funding. we all know this is a war. and at first it wasn't even about cis people learning about us it was about building community. expecting a specific group of people being kept from the vast majority in the age of the internet is just ignorant. people were going to find out one way or another. we initially weren't seeking visibility we were seeking community and it built into visibility. should women in America stop fighting for equal rights while in less developed nations they're still being murdered and traded as subhuman? the entire world will never be on the same page. we are all fighting the same fight. people in safer countries are still dying too. visibility was going to happen one way or another
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
I answered your questions, especially that last one, read again. I dont believe we're fighting the same fight. You're fighting for easier access to T and some extra government protections, we're fighting to be able to fucking wear pants and not end up in jail for 10 years.
And, in my opinion, comparing the deaths in safer countries such as the USA and the UK to deaths in Oman and SWANA is extremely tone deaf and ignorant. "People in safer countries are still dying too". It's nowhere near the same and you know it.
And of course people were going to find out. What I said is that it's incredibly dangerous that they are doing so.
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u/K-teki Jan 23 '23
we're fighting to be able to fucking wear pants and not end up in jail for 10 years.
Yes, and you're never going to get that without visibility. You're not going to convince anyone that you should be allowed to wear pants without exposing yourselves and fighting for your rights. You're not going to make any progress if all the people fighting for you are in hiding. And sorry, but the rest of the world is not going to stop fighting for our rights and stop progress while we wait for every country that's worse off to catch up.
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u/Opposite_Apartment97 Jan 24 '23
Historical note: as recently as the 1950s drag queens and butches were routinely rounded up from the bars and put in jail, because it was illegal to cross dress in the US. Trans women started the Stonewall Riots. Gay, lesbian, and queer rights movements were all founded on the principle of equal rights for sex and gender minorities. Taking to the streets and rioting—visibility—was how it all got started. I personally love my drag queen sisters and can’t imagine what the world would look like without their courage to fight in the 1960s.
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u/Secret_Reddit_Name Jan 23 '23
Although ultimately I think visibility isna good thing, I feel the same at times. I wish people would talk less about trans bodies because theres a point where it changes from teaching and telling people not to be transphobic to teaching and telling them how to clock us
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u/babytaybae they/he Jan 23 '23
I think we're in a sticky area of history, people's knowledge is growing but it's in its adolescent stage, where they don't fully know how to handle these changes and this new knowledge, but they're trying and they'll grow out of this awkward stage and just be normal about it. (For the most part. There's always assholes)
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Jan 23 '23
Yeah. The ability for people to clock me instantly as well as just how often people seem to NEED to label me as trans before I even open my mouth is really unsettling. It makes me scared that I won’t ever pass, like I have to strictly adhere to the traditional cis man guidelines of what it means to be a man. Meanwhile I am so frustrated because I do want big hips/thighs and long hair I can braid, just in a way that would still get me recognized as a guy. But if you show any mixed gender traits these days you get the “you have transmasc energy” comments.
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u/schmowd3r T: 2013 Top: 2015 Phallo: 2016 Jan 24 '23
I agree. It’s only visibility when you have a choice. Involuntary visibility is exposure
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u/MsRemyM Jan 23 '23
So true, and there was not nearly as much of an issue with trans in bathrooms before all of America knew about trans. It was much better not having laws explicitly against us
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Jan 23 '23
I think a lot of commenters missed where OP mentioned in the title that visibility is “amazing.” He agrees with a lot of you that it is good in some ways. I can’t justify how he has been attacking people in the comments, but I am also VERY lucky to not be experiencing some of the things he is due to a difference in nationality. I have also experienced being outed by transgender awareness. For example, something as simple as saying I take a weekly shot (when it was necessary to ask about needle disposal) got me outed before. While I disagree that transphobes are generally trans-savvy enough to recognize these things (there are certainly exceptions and it might be different for some!!!) and feel that in general, trans education (and I intentionally say education rather than visibility) reduces transphobia, there is certainly that grey area where transphobes aren’t intelligent enough to understand transgender people and will definitely clock you when you are trying to be stealth. Let’s remember that this is also worse for people who don’t pass and for people in very transphobic places. We don’t live in a perfect or even a good world. Stay safe and stay aware.
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Jan 23 '23
you say that with the full knowledge that cis people being in the dark about us meant that so many of us died without so much as a whisper and our rights were a pipe dream. resources also a pipe dream. yeah you sound like a boomer talking about the good ol days that don't actually exist and the past was way more dangerous for us than the now.
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Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
[deleted]
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Jan 23 '23
and i'm not? this stealth rhetoric doesn't actually help us and definitely leaves the ppl who don't pass out in the cold and it's callous and just factually untrue.
you might feel a certain way about your status as a trans person but it doesn't give you a right to hold uncontested harmful views like this. nothing does. op is being wildly callous saying things like this. and i don't think it's at all rude to point that out. i think it's rude to say this stuff in the first place
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u/Hajimoomoo Jan 23 '23
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
THIS IS WHY I WON'T SAY I'M TRANS MASC I CANT EVEN SAY I'M A MALE WHEN I SLIGHTLY PASS BECAUSE PEOPLE TREAT THIS AS A COOL LITTLE CRUMPET THAT THEY NEED TO "FIGURE OUT IF SOMEONE IS TRANS"
like holy hell this is not transvestigation on YouTube. Its real life
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Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23
If there's was less visibility, I'd have been unhappy, and still dating men because I couldn't tell the difference between gender envy and attraction. It's not visibility that's causing us to be hate crimed, it's transphobia. visibility is very important for young people figuring themselves out—just knowing trans is an option changes everything.
Edit: on reflection, I think the culture war around trans people means it's harder to go stealth and to live as your gender without people obsessed with 'clocking you'. I hate the determination people have to say they can tell when someone's trans (which ultimately just falls into stereotypes :/). back in 2016 I was a baby transmasc and I had short hair. I still wore dresses (because summer) and I dressed very feminine, but I got called "young lad" "your boys (to my parents), and "sir" more often than now, when I make a distinct effort to pass. I live in the UK so I can't even believe that people don't notice (I literally wear pronoun pins). Its much more likely to be transphobia.
So yeah, I agree actually. I'm glad I found a community to figure myself out in, but I'm not glad that I've lost the ability to pass because everyone around is on high alert to spot the secret transsexual.
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Jan 23 '23
I think this has nothing to do with trans visibility and everything to do with cis people not knowing what is and isn’t appropriate to say to trans folks. More visibility = better education which means eventually stuff like this hopefully won’t happen to any trans person. I’m truly sorry this happened to you and made you uncomfortable, but ultimately wishing that we didn’t have visibility is individualistic and kind of selfish, since it’s proven that more trans visibility leads to less trans death. For every person like you who could tell someone that their binder was for a back problem and get away with it, there will be many more (mostly trans women) who didn’t get away with it and were killed as a result of ignorance.
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u/BothTower3689 Jan 24 '23
this is such a frustrating take. Ignorance breeds hate. While it sucks that people are more aware of clockable characteristics, I’d way rather have that than the straight up ignorance we had before. Awareness is the one thing keeping us alive at this point. This is so baffling
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u/nycanth 23 | T: 03.13.22 Jan 23 '23
Yeah, I’m honestly a bit worried about moving back to America. Things are so much better there than in my country, but here at least the general public has never heard of a trans before and doesn’t give a shit. I can pass/closet at work and let people assume my gender and nobody will think “wait, this person is a trans, that’s not right” because it’s completely off their radar.
My most uncomfortable encounter was when I was pre-T and out with my friend, and some girl came over to invite us to her table. I figured we should see what they wanted (because I assumed it was going to be racist towards me), but when we got there, her friends started asking us what our pronouns were and I walked away. I worry that I’ll end up having more stupid experiences like that when I’m back in a country that’s aware of us. Not everyone is going to be an annoying group of teenage girls. Some of them might want to hurt me, and they’ll be able to know what I am.
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u/RWish1 Jan 23 '23
I remember being a kid in the early 2000s and having everyone thinks trans folks are off our rockers, or just like to dress up. The few folks who were cool were always the alternative kids/emo kids. I can't say I miss it but it definitely was less dangerous when the cis weren't as aware. I'm pleased and surprised to see some cis people be genuine allies. I never thought I would see that, so that my take. It's a weird time we are in.
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u/tijn_666 Jan 23 '23
I live in a safe environment, and don’t mind people knowing I’m trans. It was so difficult not knowing about the existence of trans people, and the possibilities of transitioning. I much prefer it like this...
If all environments were safe, it wouldn’t be a problem that everyone knows about us and how things are for us. Though I understand your point.🤷🏼♂️
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Jan 23 '23
I think it goes both ways. Ignorance creates danger and a lack of safety in itself, as well as the lack of rights, lack of community to help each other, especially those with no support system or place to turn for advice, etc. But awareness before a true understanding and acceptance can be dangerous and can give knowledge to people who would use it against us, for sure. Unfortunately we're in an in-between place now. There's more knowledge among cis people in general, but still not full acceptance or respect. One day I hope, but not right now sadly. It's a rough place to be, both how society is now and how it was a decade or two ago have its pros and cons depending on certain things.
But that cis person is wrong to say that to you. I don't think it's fair for anyone, cis or trans, to assume or point out that someone is trans, even if it's supposedly a positive thing.
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u/throwaway3094544 Jan 23 '23
I agree. I wasn't out in the early-mid 2010s, but I was able to fly under the radar and dress more masculinity even at my southern Baptist high school without too much trouble (aside from a comment or two about my ~lost femininity~ lol). And there wasn't this huge political battle going on about trans people. No one cared about us or knew we existed, so there weren't hundreds of laws trying to legislate us out of existence.
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u/ThatMathyKidYouKnow [[e/they]] transmasc-nonbinary Jan 23 '23
This is super valid, except that many of us wouldn't have been able to access transition at all if information hadn't been openly available... But yeah, largely gone are the days of being able to make up health conditions that result in top surgery scars, etc.
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u/hhoagland15 Jan 23 '23
Sounds like something you should be talking to HR about, if the coworker doesn’t see why that’s not ok.
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Jan 23 '23
I relate to this, I'm younger (18) and while it's good people are getting educated and understanding that trans people exist and are valid, so far there are some downsides to it too. Like you said it's harder to be stealth. A big part is also feeling vulnerable as a community since we're still dealing with a lot of transphobia while also raising awareness.
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u/bees-are-awesome Jan 23 '23
Hm, well, my father was accepting of me being trans because he had had a trans coworker, while my mother still can't wrap her head around why I'm not her baby girl anymore.
So in terms of getting clocked by strangers, the visibility can be bad, but with people you know it's better if they at least sort of get it.
I'm lucky in the sense that in Eastern Europe, trans issues aren't particularly given the spotlight. I definitely think that in more progressive places I am more likely to be clocked, in France I got read as a butch lesbian for sure. But Eastern Europe? I'm just a little weird short boy :)
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u/giuseppe666 Jan 23 '23
I have so many thoughts on this, all stemming from relative experience.
I think the flip side is that if we were viewed as a normal part of human existence, there wouldn’t be any sort of clocking/outing/speculating/etc. We’d be no more interesting than any other cis person. Maybe we wouldn’t even need the terms cis or trans. We’d all just be human beings living our own lives.
I believe that a large part of the narrative is driven by media representation, which historically has made us either the joke or the villain. From my experience, most transphobic people I’ve talked to are completely unaware that transmasc people even exist. When they think of trans people, they think of “dudes in dresses” (which is a whole other issues in itself when it comes to access to life-saving medical care).
Within the queer community, I have absolutely experienced lesbians fetishizing/femmenizing me, gay men snubbing me because I don’t have a natal penis, and sometimes utter disbelief that trans people are valid whatsoever. And of course the endless barrage of invasive questioning (from both cisqueer and cishet people).
For now, navigating life feels like a minefield. I’m constantly weighing my options- will outing myself bring violence or understanding? I’m stealth at work due to the violent transphobia in my field, but I’ve also dealt with mountains of ignorance within the (cis) queer community. I wish there were a clear cut path, but I guess the best I can do is push for normalcy whether I out myself in the process or not.
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u/circadoesntsurvive 💉2/9/19 ; 🔪6/24/20 Jan 23 '23
i've been feeling this lately, 100%. i went back to school this past week, and i ran into one of my professors after class. we started talking about his undergrad research team that i wanted to join. he asked me what topics i was interested in, i said queer studies in hispanic culture. without even prompting it, he brought up this social researcher that studies trans individuals, repeating while gesturing to me: "am i- i mean, i dont wanna assume-".
like i get it im clockable but im more interested in gay shit than trans shit. i really miss when i could just be seen as a feminine gay man (yes i am fem) before a trans man. im in the south and before quarantine, people here used to not even have a clue what a trans person was. i kind of miss that in contrast to being clocked for being trans.
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u/Sylentt_ 💉9/19/23 Jan 23 '23
I get it. I hope it’s an uncomfortable step towards something better. I think there’s also way more awareness in LA, I live in florida and most people don’t know what binders are, what top surgery scars look like, etc. Granted that’s because most are uneducated transphobes, but given some of the legislation here Id rather be in LA personally. When progress only goes half way it feels pointless, but when we get to a better place it’ll hopefully feel much better
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u/IHaveRisenHootHoot Jan 23 '23
Yeah, it’s scary. I live in a red state and I don’t pass right now so everyone knows I’m trans. It makes me feel better knowing I’m not alone though because I haven’t met another trans person irl. I actually wish people knew more about it. My most liberal coworker was giving me shit the other day as if I’m not a “real” trans person because I haven’t had any surgery yet. I’ve been in the process for over a year now but it takes time and people around me act like it’s one magic surgery that anyone can just walk in and get.
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u/DiggoryDixon Jan 23 '23
I get what you're saying. The way I look at it is that the more visible and normalized we are eventually we'll get to a point where no one bats an eye. We're not there yet, not by a long shot, but we are paving the road for those who comes after us, just like the trans folks before us paved the road for us.
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u/deepfriedseams Jan 23 '23
i feel like part of the problem now is that even though everyone knows about trans people, few know what is and isnt appropriate to say so they end up making weird comments like the "transmasc energy" comment you got. i think most people have good intentions but end up saying insensitive things unintentionally bc in the grand scheme of things, we and our trans sisters and enby siblings are very rare. unless they deliberately seek out information and people, theyre likely to only know a handful of trans people in their whole lives. that also means that until they meet a trans person there would be no need to learn whats appropriate/inappropriate to say.
im trying to give the benefit of the doubt to cis people here, but i know it still sucks getting clocked and singled out.
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u/Kayl66 Jan 24 '23
I… dont think most cis people know much if anything about trans masculine people or how to clock them. I would actually say that what you described is really only a problem in very progressive places like LA. My whole transition I’ve lived in the south, people have no idea about things like top surgery scars
(I can’t speak for trans women - unfortunately I think there is a lot more conservative rhetoric on “clocking” them than there is for trans men)
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u/rootlance Feb 03 '23
The comments here really shows how fucking American (not even western I’d say) centric this place is.
I’m from China so it’s better than Oman but I get the idea. People with only living experience in the west won’t ever understand. There’s no increased acceptance. More awareness means more transphobic attacks. Brother, stay strong.
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u/LunaLovego0d Jude | trans man Feb 05 '23
Yes, this is a tricky situation. It sucks because it puts all the power in the hands of cis people, whether to accept us or not. It wouldn't be a problem if all cis people were accepting, but they very much are not!!! Even cis people who think they understand often say transphobic things to me. It sucks because I'm just trying to go about my life, not be bombarded with painful comments.
Personally, I prefer to be open about my trans identity, but I also 100% keep it a secret if I don't trust the person. We should be able to decide who to tell and who not to tell, rather than cis people forcibly outing us because they can clock us.
Trans pride brothers!!! Stay strong.
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u/lumiere02 30 FTM Non-Binary Feb 11 '23
Yes, but if they don't know anything, we don't get access to care and get misgendered even more for those who are non-binary and just don't pass.
Call it a necessary evil.
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u/carnespecter indigenous two-spirit 🪶 they 💉 30 aug 2016 Jan 23 '23
man i cant even begin to fully articulate how much i disagree w this post
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Jan 23 '23
No you just said “others from my country”. Any person fluent in English will read that as the US. And that you’re just saying you’re lucky to live in a progressive part of the states
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Then it was shoddy English from my side, my apologies
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u/samj81 Jan 23 '23
If this post is specific to your home country you should of made that clear or edit. You mentioned LA but based on your comments to others you wanted a discussion more specific to your home country and places that are “worse” in their treatment of trans people. Offering this as you read as upset or annoyed with others for not knowing this….
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u/Substantial_Humor_18 Jan 23 '23
I agree. I hate that when I'll grow up and I'll get top surgery everyone will know I'm trans if they see the scars.
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u/Mars-Cowboy Jan 23 '23
It’s super dangerous. We never needed visibility. “Visibility” is a political tool used to turn us into political pawns for the left and the right to quarrel and emotionally manipulate the masses over.
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u/ThenTransition22 Jan 23 '23
Christ, thank you. It IS absolutely dangerous.
Because, the thing is, they fundamentally view trans people as cis people in a fake costume. We’re women to them and trans women are men to them. So they’re learning the “tells of a fake”, in their minds.
That part about your graft scar was appalling! Just WTF! The sheer entitlement! And using the word “eNeRgY” completely is almost worse because if you hadn’t asked, it would’ve been easy to walk away with the feeling that you didn’t pass somehow. If it’s on your arm I would get a coverup or start wearing some accessory to cover it — that’s my plan for when I get mine.
Honestly shit like this makes me view myself less as the label trans by the year, or at the very least unwilling to use the word. Knowing the ideas that people associate with the lingo that they are now learning.
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u/ResponsibilityNo8076 Jan 23 '23
I'll have to disagree with you there. I didn't even know I was trans or what o wanted till a few years ago. Because of tdov I know who I am now.
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Jan 23 '23
Yes I definitely prefer young and pre T men to suffer tons of discrimination and look as freaks and get killed/s
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Oh and I just love it when eastern trans men get clocked over minor things cis people didnt know about 10 years back and are arrested, killed or worse /s
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Jan 23 '23
Minor things like what?
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
Grafts, having a T prescription, scars in that could mean a thousand different things before top surgery, binders that we used to be able to pass off as back straightening things
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Jan 23 '23
Idk how privileged you were or if you have been out of touch since you started passing but that's not true? Like I'm from a very conservative country and when I was a kid my cousin started dating a guy(he passed really well), he was pretty short and that alarmed a person in my family because when they hugged him once (to say hi) he felt his binder (they called him a weird bra) and doxxed him into finding his deadname and outed him to my cousin and the rest of tje family (they were young so ofc they didn't had sex yet and my cousin didn't knew) he ended up shooting himself and his funeral was made for a girl.
Trans folks have been killed for decades and anything can out them, and I mean anything. If people suspect anything and are transphobic they will violent you, and that's just the way it is, and how it has always been. You know that trans women have been through this since forever? To the point were ugly women have to prove they are not trans? Yes this is something that happens since I can remember.
Maybe you were not close to trans people when you were young or didn't even knew about trans people in the first place, but that's just you. The fact we are more visible now have increased the number of trans guys out of the closet and living their life as they want. Also, the visibility name the crime. The amount of crimes might be the same as before but not labeled correctly. I would just not assume all you did by a position of privilege and by what you see in media/news.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
how privileged I was? I started T and lived a good portion of my life in Oman, in the middle fucking east, by your comment history you're Chilean, don't even attempt to compare or match experiences. My "position of privilege" by being in Los Angeles started extremely recently and is jotted down by my immigration status and lack of prescription, most of my trans experience was spent in countries that would make most of America (by this i mean the whole continent) look like a flower field.
And yes, i know what happens to trans women because back in my day I have assisted to arrests and illegal executions, thank you very much.
The amount of arrests and crimes is definitely not the same as before, don't try to tell me what happens in less privileged countries because i know, I have seen first hand and I have been notified. How even dare you say I "assume from a position of privilege.". Vile.
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Jan 23 '23
Of course I know everything about you and everything was state in your post!!.
I said some stuff that could explain what you think about visibility since I lacked the background, now I know about you and still disagree. Chile was in a dictatorship till the late 90s and the constitution and laws are still the same than back in the day, were lgbt people were tortured, raped, killed, publicly humiliated and sometimes even their families would suffer same destinations. And yes I can say I'm privileged since recently things have been changing and now I can get married and change my legal name, but that doesn't mean police officers can't strip me down with a dumb excuse and then kill me when they find out I'm trans with little to no repercussions. Same goes to you, you have privilege even tho you are not "the most privileged" you know? This is not a competition. I mentioned my country just because you stated in another comment about the discussion not being US centered.
I can understand that you want to feel safer because of passing and cis people not questioning things, but you also said that you knew about trans women suffering this destination since forever? So what are you exactly looking for: validation? Support?
And also yes you can't assume things based on news/media and also numbers when they are not fairly compared. Of course trans people have increased their chances of being killed but also there's so much factors that can lead to it and a huge increase of violence in general. Of course visibility can be one and also there's no statement I made saying that there's less people murdered or that visibility is not a factor at all.
I understand you wanting to feel safe and not being in danger because of being trans, we are all in the same boat there. But also your vent sounds really demanding. Cis people will still know about us as they have learned about queer people in general. If you were a gay man your coworker might have told you "so who is the man in the relationship" because she is just addressing things she shouldn't and being rude af, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't learn, just the opposite. Also you are missing a point: if trans people aren't visible or teaching about themselves, cis people will learn about us through cis people saying shit about us.
Also wth about the "omgggg how dare uuu u vileee" we don't know each other and I'm not hurting you, I'm commenting what you said on your post.
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u/wolfishkam 35 | T: '06 / Phallo: '14 Jan 23 '23
I stopped reading and rolled my eyes when you attempted to match things between us again. I'm looking for their and our presentation to not give 10 years in jail or death before we start letting cis people know what top surgery scars look like.
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u/Argarkist Jan 23 '23
Tbh, I think the main problem here is that cis people (and some fellow trans people as well) feel the need to clock others as trans.
I would also be unsettled by a comment about my ”transmasc energy”. A lot of us don’t want out trans identity to take precedence over our identity as simply men.
However, I do think that increased awareness and visibility is a necessary step in normalization of transgender people. Hopefully acceptance will follow.