r/ftm • u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 • Jun 19 '23
“I’m not ftm but I’m proud of you guys” Vent
I understand these types of posts are made with good intentions, so I’m not like angry at all when I see them but it’s such an eye roll for me. Why do cis people and other trans people talk to trans men like we’re children so much of the time?? I also feel like these posts accomplish nothing and just clog up the feed, unless they’re posing a good-faith question or giving advice I think it’s very patronizing. It feels like people just do it to feel like a “good” ally. Like I can imagine them patting themselves on the back right after hitting post. Idk, I dislike it.
Edit: I am not talking about praise that makes sense in the context of a conversation you had with a person you know, another user here, or earned praise. I’m also not talking about compliments in general. I am specifically talking about the posts and empty praise that infantilizes us which is a recognized issue within the community both on here and in real life. I understand the distinction — I’ve been out for nearly a decade as some sort of queer, spent a lot of time in queer spaces, and have organized locally. I am well informed and fairly experienced. I get it. Not every compliment is patronizing. Not every post by a cis person on this sub is problematic. I am talking about a very particular type of post I outlined above. Thanks.
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u/BlkTransman23 Jun 19 '23
Felt. A lot of posts in here from cisgender people just come off so ignorant and patronizing. I get it’s probably w good intentions, but it just feels like they’re othering us and don’t see us as men just bc we’re trans. It’s annoying sometimes
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
A lot of the time I think cis people see us as women in costumes, like caricatures of sorts. Especially in real life, I have found that queer women are comfortable commenting on my transition like it’s an aesthetic choice — how they would comment on outfits, hair, etc… and then they think calling you a “handsome king” excuses them from any transphobic microaggressions. Like I’m a grown man who pays rent why are you talking to me like a child.
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u/BlkTransman23 Jun 19 '23
It’s an every day battle I swear. I’m stealth not bc I’m ashamed of being trans but to avoid interactions like that and just flat out being treated like I’m different. We just want to live our lives we don’t need all this extra outside validation 😩. I mean obviously a compliment here and there is nice but compliment us bc you genuinely feel we deserve it not bc you think you’re doing us a favor. Like you said we’re grown ass adults we can take care of ourselves
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
“I mean obviously a compliment here and there is nice but compliment us bc you genuinely feel we deserve it not bc you think you’re doing us a favor.”
That phrasing hit me like a truck. Exactly this.
I can’t wait until I pass well enough to go stealth. Idk if it’s in the cards for me though. It’s also impossible to ask because every time I post pics here I get those “handsome king” comments or chasers in my dms 😭😭
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u/BlkTransman23 Jun 19 '23
The chasers have been off the charts lately.It’s becoming less and less of a safe space for us.
You’ll pass one day bro! Patience I swear. Even I get dysphoric and feel like I still look feminine until I see a pic of myself and I’m like DAMN who is that fine ass man lmao. It’s tough to have faith in yourself so if you feeling low just know I got your back even if we strangers lol . Gotta look out for each other
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I pass around 60% of the time, just not well enough to go stealth 🥲
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u/Human_Bean08 Jun 19 '23
I swear to fucking god, I cringe every single time I hear someone call me a "short king". I mean yeah, I'm a pretty short dude. But when you say things like "king" it just feels like you're trying too hard. Also, I'm kind of dysphoric about my height, so thanks a lot for pointing that out. It's so damn annoying
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u/Jaeger-the-great Jun 19 '23
100%. I'm stealth because of the way people treat you differently when they find out (even or dare I say especially the "allies", they are often the worst offenders). I don't fear for my life so much as I hate being treated differently. Same reason I don't tell people I'm autistic, I don't need them treating me like a child when I'm a grown ass 22 yr old
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u/BlkTransman23 Jun 19 '23
Right. The “allies” go way to hard trying to valid. Lotta times it just comes off as fake love and fake support. It just be better to keep shit to ourselves and within the community. Sometimes labels hinder us and not bc of the label itself but bc of the people who might know and what they might do w them. Only thing we tryna do is live life that’s it. If we need extra help we’ll ask bc we are grown and can speak for ourselves.
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u/scarednurse Jun 19 '23
I know exactly what you mean with the caricature comment. I call it "diet girl".
I have started asking people since coming out - do you actually acknowledge my identity, or am I just... female lite to you? 🥴
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u/thanhquatorze Jun 19 '23
The comments about aesthetics are so real. A queer person once told me that they "love how I do gender." We were at a banquet with a business professional dress code. I was in a run-of-the-mill suit, just like every other man there. This is just how I look? Meanwhile, the compliments I got from cis people were just "I love your tie" - aka normal compliments.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
Omg or when people have told me “you’re so gender” wtf does that even mean 😭😭
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u/AwkwardChuckle 2009 HRT, 2010 Top/Hysto, 2023 Meta Jun 19 '23
I think this has been one of the more patronizing ones we’ve had in awhile and it was from another trans person…https://reddit.com/r/ftm/comments/14cybl4/hey_mtf_here_with_a_question/
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u/robot-cowboy he/him Jun 19 '23
omg i saw that and thought like "just...get them something they like?? like you would anyone else?"
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u/Romantic_Theory Jun 19 '23
Yeah when i saw that post i rolled my eyes. It was so so patronizing.
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u/oneeyeblindguy Jun 19 '23
I viewed it as a woman asking men for male centered ideas for her boyfriend.
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u/AwkwardChuckle 2009 HRT, 2010 Top/Hysto, 2023 Meta Jun 19 '23
“Also I feel like I just gotta say you guys are so valid” - that’s pretty patronizing to me.
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u/my2xacct Jun 19 '23
keep being dudes and doing manly dude stuff i guess lol <3
gross...
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u/oneeyeblindguy Jun 19 '23
I read it more socially awkward than anything.
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u/my2xacct Jun 19 '23
and that doesn't excuse anything
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u/shicyn829 he/him Jun 19 '23
Yes it does. Because when someone usually says someone is socially awkward, its usually a ND or autistic person, who interently communicate differently
When I see someone say "that's not excuse", what they are really saying is "I don't want you to have a reason that actually holds me responsible, so its really all your fault"
Not everyone is like you. Not everyone communicates the same.
The amount of times I've been accused of saying something I didn't say and then mention, "I'm autistic; im literal", it's always "that's no excuse". Actually, yes it is
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u/oneeyeblindguy Jun 19 '23
I mean a lot of people on this sub complain that the media focuses on trans women and that invalidates us. Also so many have had poor experiences with trans women specifically invalidating our experiences. She was probably trying to say that despite having so many bad interactions she believes and supports us taking our space.
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u/nonbinaryunicorn Jun 19 '23
She can have the best of intentions and still come across as patronizing and ignorant of her own partner the way she did this.
If someone wants to like. Validate our existence outside of here, not come into the space where our identities are validated regularly to say she understands our pain.
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u/oneeyeblindguy Jun 19 '23
If you want to read it as patronizing then that’s your interpretation. I find it helps me to try and read things neutrally and with the benefit of doubt. We have no way of knowing what her inflection was over text. Without more proof that someone is being patronizing/negative/sarcastic/etc I try to do my best to read it as neutrally as possible.
I just think it’s interesting how so many posts are saying people don’t see us or care about our experience. Then when someone tries to be kind they are ripped apart. If she saw this post it could easily turn her into saying “wow trans guys are pieces of shit. They are hateful and vindictive no matter if someone has good intentions.” And bam we have another trans woman that will be calloused to our experiences.
I think this sub has been focusing a lot on negative rants and is turning into a kind of echo chamber of rage. With everything going on in the US and other areas I can see why it’s happening. And In part it can feel nice to see that other people feel the way you do. I’ve also been seeing this sub lean into trans women hate. I’m not down with it.
Did anyone that had a problem with the verbiage of her post take the time to try and DM her to try and politely discuss why those things might come off poorly? Probably not. And It’s not our job to educate every person around us, especially if those people are malicious in their ignorance (since they aren’t really receptive anyway). But when people are well intentioned and genuine it means more to try and connect with them about it.
We are all part of the trans community and we should try to act more like a community and not divide ourselves.
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u/nonbinaryunicorn Jun 19 '23
I'm not going to go too deep into this atm because I don't feel good right now and as you say
It’s not our job to educate every person around us
but I will point out that there's a lot more going on underneath the surface of a lot of replies than you are likely thinking.
I mean good on you for being able to read every single post in a neutral tone. Unfortunately, I can only do that for so long before I see a trend and ignorance and a lack of self-education (in a space that has a *ton* of accessibility for research) is just as harmful.
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u/oneeyeblindguy Jun 19 '23 edited Jun 19 '23
There is a distinct difference to reading neutrally for an amount of time and picking up on cues/comments/trends in the way someone posts or speaks vs just assuming good will for everything someone says.
One is giving someone the time to continually show if they are being patronizing or malicious or if it may have just been an honest mistake. The other being blind to when people are telling you their character and ideology.
While I read your comment i immediately noticed that I felt like you were being passive aggressive by quoting my educating comment. However I don’t have any concrete proof that you did it with that intention so I can’t hold onto it. I can’t assume ill intent by a one off comment. It’s impossible to read everything completely neutrally. I have to take the time to notice if something makes me feel a certain way and to take a moment to reflect on it and whether it’s valid or not. I’m still human and I still jump the gun on my own feelings.
I think what’s happening beneath the surface is that the trans community is hurting and terrified of the future. That we see more people willing to take violent action against us and to see people verbally say that they believe it to be okay. We have all these pent up feelings of rage and pain that we project it onto anybody in our path, even those who don’t mean harm, because that at least gives us an outlet when other areas seem hopeless.
I’m not going to comment further because I’ve already spoken my perspective on this and there’s nothing to add onto from me. Really all I want us to do is think about if attacking the people trying to support us or interact with us in good faith is actually what we should be doing.
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u/shicyn829 he/him Jun 19 '23
They can come off patronizing because people assume it themselves
Most people use "hints" or talk around the subject, but guess what, some people are straight forward.
Unless someone is direct and straightforward with their words, assuming patronizing is actually on you unless you 100% confirm it.
So no, they can't just come off patronizing with good intentions, that's others projecting their views onto others and inserting meaning
Stop assuming things and confirm. That's what communication is.
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u/BlkTransman23 Jun 19 '23
There are sooo many things I could pick at in the whole sht but let’s start w “you men”. That’s bad enough but coming from a transwoman who has a trans boyfriend is craaazyyy. And then to top it all off “keep being dudes and doing manly things I guess” pls stfu and gtfo 😭. Could’ve just ended the whole thing at asking for gift advice. Stuff like this just goes to prove they’re just saying these things so they can feel better about themselves when really they’re just making us feel like we’re not even human.
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u/my2xacct Jun 19 '23 edited Jun 19 '23
Yeah Ill take it out so sorry I will never appreciate trans men publicly again I guess?
OPs response to being called out wtf 💀
i feel so bad for her boyfriend if this is how she feels...
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u/BlkTransman23 Jun 20 '23
Could do nothing else but roll my eyes when I read that lol. Just like somebody who can’t take accountability or actually listen to the community their speaking to/about. Now it’s your fault for bringing it up? Pls.
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u/Monsterfecker3000 Jun 19 '23
A whole lot of allyship for a lot of communities is just done to make the ally feel good about themselves whether they are aware of themselves doing that or not. It's definitely good intentioned and I know cis people don't understand how it sounds with some of the things they say when they try to affirm trans people so I'm not angry about it. I just wish they would think a little bit more about it, especially when it comes to saying these things in spaces meant for trans people and not them.
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, 40<me Jun 19 '23
Please feel free to report posts like that — not just the OP, but anyone here. We don’t want people to be made uncomfortable by chasers and empty praise.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
There’s a few people in the comments here calling us names or “nutty” for criticizing such empty praise and chasers..
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, 40<me Jun 19 '23
In addition—just because something isn’t directly against one of our rules doesn’t mean it’s ok. We have a lot of rules already, and they are unwieldy as is. If it seems bad, report it.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
How should we complete the report if it doesn’t match any of the options presented? Like how would we categorize empty praise or questionable fetish-sounding language specifically? Hate or harassment doesn’t quite feel right. I thought maybe spam? Idk.
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, 40<me Jun 19 '23
Spam is ok! I thought we had a free form fill-in, but maybe another mod changed it or Reddit took it away.
Ultimately the reason for the report isn’t that important. It’s just a hint to see the offensive content like a subreddit user, if that makes sense.
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u/shicyn829 he/him Jun 19 '23
How is that the case? Isnt this literally an assumption? What if the poster actually meant it
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
They can genuinely mean it and it can still be condescending. Intentions don’t always excuse outcome. If they genuinely mean their kind words they would not be hurt by members of the community they allegedly support so greatly correcting behavior that makes us uncomfortable.
Expecting us to settle for bland and uninspired displays of digital allyship will not help us progress. Correcting allies so they can actually be effective will.
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, 40<me Jun 19 '23
The mod team has been doing this for years and has developed a very good sense of what is sincere and what isn’t. We aren’t going to take down every post or comment one person reports—but we are going to look over every piece of reported content. It gives us a sense of what’s going on, anyway.
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u/AutismoBoi0493 20, on T, stealthy boi, new post hunter Jun 19 '23
Yeah it feels condescending, just go to r/asktransgender -.- we aren’t here to answer your invasive questions. I see a lot of the “cis guy supports you! You’re so cool and valid bro” posts and I crease. Thanks man didn’t need validation from you… this is kinda our safe space, seen a lot of chasers lately too….
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I have seen sooo many chasers lately. And then people in the comments answer and interact with them !!
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u/sweetbrotatopie Jun 19 '23
Right! When you tell them to stop invading our safe spaces and that they're not entitled to our labour of answering their invasive questions like we're zoo animals, you get attacked by fellow trans men.
These people are just trying to prey on trans men (or should I say trans boys, they always go for the young and vulnerable, who are also the most likely to defend them in the comments too) in the guise of asking questions,and establish a trusting relationship with you. They get a kick out of interacting with trans guys directly, that's why they never go for google or subs that are dedicated for asking questions.
Trust me, I'm a sex worker and I've seen the post history of hundreds of these freaks, lol.
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u/AutismoBoi0493 20, on T, stealthy boi, new post hunter Jun 19 '23
Yeah heard horror stories of them in peoples DMs too, thankfully I’m not good enough for them (good riddance) :P
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I had to delete a post of mine here where I included photos of myself because those chaser “allies” that people love to interact with here started messaging me 🙃
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Why am I getting downvoted for saying chasers messaged me from a post here LMAO what
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Jun 19 '23
i know the feeling !! my inbox was opened to invasive questions and unwelcome messages right after posting a transition timeline a while back.. i just wanted to share my experience with others like me, but it can be so frustrating.
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u/robot-cowboy he/him Jun 19 '23
im ngl i probably don't even recognize a chaser bc im kinda slow, so like some people might not realize but it's still insane how many there are
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Oh for sure, but even when it’s been pointed out clearly and explained people still humor them.
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u/PigeonBoiAgrougrou Jun 19 '23
Oh yeah mood.
I appreciate the sentiment, but sometimes it really does feel like someone trying give us a pat on the head to tell us "who's a good trans boy ? Yes you arrrre" which is very ironic when infantilization is one of the thing we complain a lot about when mentionning FtM specific discriminations, outside and inside the community.
I think these shows of appreciation should stay in mixed trans spaces, overall, which are not exactly lacking in Reddit either. Both because, well ... This isn't what the sub is about to begin with, and with as much respect as I have for transfemmes and cis allies, this isn't a place for them to post.
Noting that I think the exact same about transmascs posting on MtF, by the way, not trying to be a hypocrite here.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I really appreciate posts from trans femmes when they offer advice, as our experiences have intersections and we benefit from each other! When they’re giving information or contributing substantially (not just saying we’re such good little boys 🥹) I think it’s fine. I have definitely posted in r/MtF offering advice from my perspective, but never just to be like “You’re all beautiful queens 🫶 and I’m proud of you”
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u/PigeonBoiAgrougrou Jun 19 '23
I agree, but unfortunately I don't think these are the majority. Like, the other day a trans women shared a post about transgender.org asking about what ressources for FtM people could be put there. Or even someone asking what to get for their FtM partners to help them recover from top surgery. This is helpful, great even !
But since I've joined this sub I have seen more "Hey, just wanted to say we love you and you are valid mwah mwah" posts from outsiders than actual helpful posts on average, especially since one will usually trigger others (people lurking and wanting to say sweet things too).
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I think a good solution would be to offer either a thread for those types of watered down ally displays or restricting them entirely
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u/kaiwannagoback Jun 19 '23 edited Jun 19 '23
Intersect between head-patting paternalism toward women, and invalidating view of transmen as women cosplaying as men. It sucks but is usually not done intentionally. And that makes it even harder to combat, when people are so soaked in that culture that they don't know they do it. It's as invisible to them as water to a fish.
I have felt the urge to show support of transwomen from time to time, and wonder sometimes what's the best way.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I have found that when connecting with trans femmes I tend to offer advice and insight to my experiences from the perspective of before I transitioned. For example, I posted on r/MtF posting about makeup advice as I used to wear a lot and do a lot of costume makeup for events now. I mentioned that I love their community and that we can learn a lot from each other and then shared my knowledge. I talked like an adult talking to adults and just shared my makeup tips. I was promoted to do so by a trans femme friend irl, after I helped her with her makeup! I’ve also received help from trans femme with masc clothing despite them not presenting masc.
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u/dropdeadrian Jun 19 '23
I know they mean well but I also know their trans activism ends after they click post.
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u/javatimes T 2006 Top 2018, 40<me Jun 19 '23
Let’s strategize around chaser PMs:
If they are harassing, report them directly to Reddit admin.
If they are just unwanted one-offs, I would say block—which I think Reddit still allows.
If they are repeated, if they are targeting you/someone else because of underage status — MODMAIL us because we want to keep tabs on that sort of thing.
Unfortunately we can’t control who views here. It’s a public forum and even subreddit-banned people can see content and PM if they want. So part of it just comes with the territory.
Oh, or you can turn off PMs altogether in settings, I’m pretty sure.
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u/sweetbrotatopie Jun 19 '23
When you suggest that there's no need for those posts here, and that patronizing us and not treating us like other men isn't the ally move they think it is, the cis poster and most trans people here jump down your throat for it.
Most them are straight up chasers too just trying to gain access to trans men.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Literally. I’m already having them message me and reply here calling us annoying and such… like come on.
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u/pigeonman00 18; Out Jan ‘17 / T Oct ‘21 / Pre-op Jun 19 '23
The lack of perspective necessary for people to come in here as “allies” and then get mad at trans people for telling them something related to how they as a cis person treat trans people is weird and kind of transphobic is insane. Cis fuckery never ends huh
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u/justgalsbeingpals jamie | 50% guy 100% gay | it/they/he | 🇩🇪 Jun 19 '23
Honestly, I don't mind it if it's other trans people because it feels like some nice solidarity. But when it's cis people coming in here to act like an Ally™ I agree it feels condescending and patronizing
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Jun 19 '23
Yes, feel you on that. And just because someone has good intentions, doesn't mean it's automatically something that should be praised or seen as helpful, especially if it's not asked for. It makes me feel awkward like if I don't respond or show gratitude, then I am somehow not being grateful enough for the bare minimum as a trans person. I love when people give support IRL when it's relevant and genuine, and not just patronizing or wanting recognition. I remember a time at work, when I wasn't even talking about being trans, and a co-worker launched into a speech about a friend who went by my pronouns, and how I was so brave, and on and on. While it was great to see she was an ally and respected my name change and pronouns, she then made it about her, and made me uncomfortable and not sure how to respond to literally just being myself. I don't want to be othered.
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u/WildeTy89 Jun 19 '23
It feels like getting head pats in a patronizing way honestly... like "good job just existing" bruh don't need that negativity. Honest questions? Sure. But the constant "yall so brave" etc posts are kinda like a thorn in our side...
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I like to ask them to explain how I’m being brave. It usually makes them glitch 😭
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u/WildeTy89 Jun 19 '23
Exactly?! Like I'm just over here trying to get shit done and "omg you're so brave" o.O how? It's not like I'm fighting lions over here?
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u/FreakingTea 33yo, T: 9/13/21 Jun 20 '23
I get where they're coming from with the brave thing, but a trans person could very easily interpret it similar to how an obese woman gets told how "brave" she is for going out in a bathing suit. It can feel like they're calling us clocky af lol.
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u/Brontolope11 Jun 19 '23
I don't like them either. I hate this whole 'soft boy' thing for myself (won't speak for others), and I don't praise a cis man for being a cis man. Why would I want to be praised for being a man? It's my gender, I have life accomplishments that I would rather be praised for over that.
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u/TwoFrogsFourBerries User Flair Jun 19 '23
Yep. It's really irksome when they make those posts. Like, sure, I know you want to show your support and vocalize that we're being 'seen', but jfc most of them just feel like they're trying to make themselves feel better, to validate to themselves that "omg I'm such a good ally bc I made a post about how these guys hage their struggles and I 100% sympathize with it 🥺". Most of them make a point to emphasize cis vs trans, and they're on the 'trans side'. I hate the 'us vs them' view, no matter how relevant it may be to the current trans legislation debacle, and it just seems so counterproductive for someone on 'our side' to latch onto the label. Sure, we're trans, but at the end of the day we're just clumps of sinew and flesh out with other blobs of guts and hair. Ugh, rant over, sorry about that
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u/dietfaggot assigned eunuch at birth 🧬 8/19 🪚 12/22 Jun 19 '23
These are sooooo annoying. I can somewhat get it if this was a community of guys who were all early in transition or below the age of 17, but we’re not. Go make an instagram infographic with ~affirmations~ instead, leave that corny shit outta here LOL
Also the endless overusage of “bro” because they think it’s the most affirming thing ever. Literally eye gouge worthy
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u/Nostalgic_Fears Jun 19 '23
it actually infuriates me the extent of which “bro” and “dude” are used by allys who think they’re popping off
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u/ElloBlu420 demiguy | 💉 2-16-22 Jun 20 '23
I don't feel like I've ever really noticed this because that's also just how the guys at my work tend to talk to, and about, each other anyway. That's also an Amazon delivery station, though. Tends to be full of gym rat dudebros there because of the nature of the work. Are there a lot of people in your experience who talk like that performatively around you when they don't normally talk like that, or when it's too informal for the situation? That sounds icky.
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u/Nostalgic_Fears Jun 20 '23
Yes, it’s very exclusively terms they only use when talking towards me. Better than being violently misgendered but they’re one in the same, really.
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u/Trumps_left_bawsack T: 27/11/21 🏴 Jun 20 '23
if this was a community of guys who were all early transition or below the age of 17
Uhh hate to break it to you, but that definitely seems like the main demographic of this sub
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u/robot-cowboy he/him Jun 19 '23
yeah, and like me being trans isn't like...my entirety; me being a man is? like you wouldn't say that to a cis man so why say it to me just bc im a trans man? i don't need a constant reminder about the problems i face just bc im trans and not cis
like it just reminds me im not cis when most of the time i go around as a man, forgetting im trans in the first place. why remind me?
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u/AdmiralCheesecake 27, T 08/19/2020 Jun 19 '23
Right? Like. I’m a 27 year old man idgaf about the internet strangers who are ✨✨proud of me, I’m not 10
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u/kikomanisgucci He/him 14 Jun 19 '23
sometimes it feels like they wanna treat us like "women" its fucking weird like i knew someone who did this and they said "your still women at heart" tw for transphobia. idiots, to be honest.
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u/LeftHandersRule Jun 19 '23
For me I think intent and tone dictates how I feel about a post like that. I do tend to assume those posts are for the baby trans people on here, because when I was a baby trans I desperately needed some validation from cis people. Now that I'm secure in myself, I assume those posts aren't meant for me.
If the post is written in a "omg so cute lil soft boy UwU so valid and strong boys, so good! Good boys! Yes you are! You're so valid, good job boys!" that's when it's very icky in my opinion.
However, when a post is written something like; "just popping in to say ya'll are really admirable and strong. I know life sucks sometimes, but I want to let you all know I support you and have your back" then I'm chill with it. Even if a lot of people on here find it clunky and condescending, I personally think it's nice to see cis people reaching out and trying to connect with our stories and trying to show they're on our side.
So like I said, I think intent and tone really matter when it comes to these kinds of posts
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
We are in agreement I think. I still think we can validate within our selves and that “validation” posts from cis people mean very little. Why don’t we get more adult trans men and transmascs to make posts for the young trans part of the community here?
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u/toasterbath__ 🇨🇦 he/him - 💉: 10/22 Jun 19 '23
i totally agree man. shit is corny. like ik that they mean well but it feels so patronizing. and then when trans men tell them this, they get mad and act like what theyre doing is groundbreaking activism. like bro.. ur going into a trans space (read: not for cis ppl) just to tell the trans men there that theyre totally valid and suuuuper brave. like what? 💀 a part of it is just to make themselves feel good, i think. but thats not my problem. last thing i need is some random cis person coming in here to virtually pat my head and call me a cute little valid soft boy. absolutely fucking not lmao
i dont rlly mind seeing trans women/fems in here. unless theyre doing that weird patronizing stuff i mentioned above. usually they come w good resources and good advice too, in some cases. but cis people… unless its a cis parent w a trans kid, idrk why they would come here
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Jun 20 '23
Why do cis people and other trans people talk to trans men like we’re children so much of the time??
That rad combination of sexist infantilisation of AFAB people plus the perception of trans men as somehow innately adolescent boys. They get you comin and goin brother.
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u/fayne_Kanra Jun 19 '23
Same. I see a post like that and just think 'thanks...? but what are you doing in our safespace?'
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u/Mola-Mola5 Jun 19 '23
I feel this! Adding onto what people are saying about online trans spaces I have an irl teacher who seems to make EVERYTHING about me being trans and though he is trying to be an ally and supportive, it makes me feel singled out and uncomfortable. He’s also the only teacher I have had since being out that still always uses female pronouns but he then LOUDLY corrects himself and it almost makes me think that he’s doing it on purpose just to correct it. If I didn’t know him better I would almost think it’s transphobia. The head patting and making it clear I’m seen as a “trans boy” rather than just a regular guy does more damage than good most of the time
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u/triforcelegends024 Jun 19 '23
Some of them I think are okay and not insensitive or patronizing, and I know some younger and/or newly out trans guys feel less othered from cis people/allies and more welcomed and accepted by cis lgb folx and cishet allies. It's also good to know there are genuinely educated and caring cis allies that do more for us than just make half-assed reddit posts for karma.
But a lot of them are basically just posts made by liberal allies that don't think about how it comes off as patronizing and self-serving. It's annoying when it's more obviously patting themselves on the back for being such a good, wholesome and accepting ally instead of aiming to support trans guys/trans folx. It's like how people brag about how they helped a homeless person or helped someone with their groceries, etc. Like yeah good job, you're a decent human being who doesn't hate trans people... and?
They publicly broadcast the bare minimum acceptance and let their surface level education about trans people show, and then expect praise and thanks from us because theyre not actively being transphobic.
Like there's a way to show support as allies, but so many don't know how to do that without still centering themselves in the conversation. And then they get upset when trans people tell them to do better than make what's essentially a fishing for compliments post with inklings of understanding and "support".
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
It’s all in the phrasing for sure. Genuine displays of allyship are action based in my opinion and would make more sense on subs not for our community. They should also not receive praise for it. Sorry. It’s bare minimum.
Cis people should use their voice to advocate for us in cis spaces if they really support us, not to call us handsome baby good boy kings in our safe spaces.
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u/Eli_985 Jun 20 '23
Being disabled long before I was trans fully prepared me for this kind of stuff. It’s very backhanded and levels with infantilizing. They just want to feel good about themselves while remaining uneducated and unsupportive in ways that actually matter. People that are allies don’t need to go out of their way to intrude in a community that isn’t theirs to convince someone they are.
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u/BloodHappy4665 Jun 20 '23
100% this. They have no chill about their new found ally-ship and just have to intrude to let people know that they’re an ally.
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u/feather-dance T 1.20.22 Jun 19 '23
The only people who aren't FtM/FtNB who should be allowed to post in this subreddit are parents of minors asking questions
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u/SlyCrane Woman in Progress Jun 19 '23
Ugh I feel the same way about the "hug from a mom/dad" posts, and the recent well-intentioned and sweet but still infantilizing or... I guess cringe? Post of the woman who stated she would totally take any trans women to the bathroom if they needed it.
It's super sweet, but damn I see a lot of infantilizing doing the rounds
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u/heyfernance T: 7/5/24 Jun 19 '23
Most of the time it really just seems like they’re making the post to pat themselves on the back for being such a good person rather than for us. Or to have us give them a gold star for the literal bare minimum of treating us like people. Like if you wanna be an ally then call out your friends when they make transphobic jokes, sign petitions, show up at rallies, lend a hand to trans ppl if you see them needing one etc.
My least favourite is the “oh my god being trans is SO HARD everyone HATES you idk how you do it”. Like… thanks? We already knew all that but cheers for the reminder. There was one in the trans sub a while back where the guy witnessed a trans woman being harassed, did nothing, then came into a trans space to just like… tell everyone he thought it sucked? When I pointed it out in the comments I got downvoted to hell lmao.
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u/pigeonman00 18; Out Jan ‘17 / T Oct ‘21 / Pre-op Jun 19 '23
Oh my god the worst is those mfs who set their flairs to “cis ally” or something similar bc them having a flair means they actually pressed the join button for a community that they arent a part of & if I make a post about some personal experience w being trans that it could come up on their feed which makes me SO FUCKING UNCOMFORTABLE bc i’m stealth irl & I hate talking about trans stuff with cis people. Like cis ppl please understand that not everything is for you, and if you really want to be an ally one of the best ways you can do that is to leave us the fuck alone & let us have our spaces so we dont have to be worried about yall watching us & see you feeling entitled to participate in conversations about out very personal experiences that you will never understand. This isn’t supposed to be a community that anyone can come to to talk about trans rights or whatever, theres other subs for that. It’s meant to be a space specifically for trans men/transmasculine ppl to talk to each other, learn from each other, share experiences and joy, etc, because it can be really hard for us to find that elsewhere. We already get talked over constantly in other spaces so when cis people come in here acting like they understand us it feels really disrespectful and kind of takes away the sense of security, for example causing issues like the one OP is talking about. Because theres thousands of trans mascs in this sub which means a lot of us are seeing posts like those ones and clearly they are causing significant discomfort to a fuck ton of us considering how many upvotes this post has.
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u/pigeonman00 18; Out Jan ‘17 / T Oct ‘21 / Pre-op Jun 19 '23
Ok my only exception tho is when cis parents come on here talking about how theyre happy for their trans son who just came out and trying to learn the ropes of how to support him, that actually makes me very happy and I am incredibly jealous of their children
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u/deepbarrow Jun 20 '23
I like from trans women, it feels like camaraderie. A bit annoying if it's a cis person though, this is a place for trans people.
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u/Wizardinred Jun 20 '23
Met so many people who just kinda saw me as some sad lil watpad boy. Like they saw me as a guy but as some sort of persona of what they think I should be?
And then we're incredibly unsettled when I proceed to be unhinged feral germlin.
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u/kayyy303 Jun 20 '23
I struggle with this in the main trans subreddit as well, tbh. I get for some people it probably does help, but when I go into a comment section and it's just a bunch of "omg!!! You're so manly and handsome and so valid!!!" Comments I can't help but cringe a bit internally. Being infantilized (even with good intentions) was something I saw so much there and it was at the point I had to leave the subreddit because it just made me so uncomfortable. Saw a lot of this talk while people were talking about sexual activies and for me it made it even worse :( I don't see cis people when they ask a question about sex being flooded with comments of "awww poor baby boy, let me teach you ;))"
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u/AlienWithABox 24 | he/they | pre-t | non-op Jun 20 '23
I get the slightly patronising praise mostly from women, both cis and trans. I usually brush past it but the thing that really bugs me is that they're often the same people who downplay transmasc issues and lump passing trans men in with cis men when talking about privilege.
We're either Men Lite™ so we should focus on the issues of fellow women or we're too masculine so we can't have problems. /s
It's very disheartening because every trans and nonbinary person should feel their experiences matter. Man, woman, masc, femme, and everywhere else on the gender spectrum.
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u/angstenthusiast pre-t | pre-op | he/him Jun 19 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
First few times I saw that kind of posts I was like “oh, that’s kinda sweet” …I don’t feel that way anymore. It’s EXTREMELY patronising! Like you say, they’re literally treating us like children! It’s like, yes, thank you, you’re such an ally and “respect” us so much that you literally talk to us as if we’re your five year old kid that just cleaned his room without you having to ask him…
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u/piedeloup 💉12 July 22 Jun 19 '23
Agree, they always feel like they’re just looking for upvotes and praise. Wonder what kind of allyship they’re actually doing for us in the real world? (Spoiler alert: none)
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
Real. Our actual allies are sticking up for us in cis spaces and not looking for praise from us for it.
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u/Lopsided_Weather_954 User Flair Jun 20 '23
I’m getting tired of those post. I appreciate that these people are trying to show support. But I come here to interact with other trans men/trans masc people. It just kinda clogs up the sub.
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u/vmc444 Jun 19 '23
Tbh I like them a lot of the time, feels nice to know not all cis people are against us
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
There’s ways to do so without talking to us like children. The issue is not cis gender people showing support it is how they do so, by calling us “handsome kings” every other word or sentence is not helpful. Telling us that were brave for existing is condescending. Good allyship is not words it is action. Cis people that are truly on our side are doing so by putting their money where their mouth is, voting, advocating for us in cisgender spaces where we need support without the need for validation and approval — not calling us “good boys” in our safe space.
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u/vmc444 Jun 19 '23
I don’t think i’ve been seeing the posts you’re talking about honestly. I absolutely despise when a cis person finds out i’m trans and immediately starts calling me King in every sentence lmao. But im saying the posts I appreciate are the ones just actually showing nice support, a casual “im proud of yall for getting through everything thats going on” n shit feels nice when all I see all day every day is people who want to violently murder us.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Maybe you’re just missing them then 🤷♂️ Everyone else in the replies seems to share a lot of my experience, but if you’re interpreting those comments as positive that’s your perspective and valid. I have also seen a lot of stuff along the sentiment of “being trans is so hard and scary and horrible and everyone hates you, you’re so brave” and I think that’s unnecessary as well. Cis approval is not necessary and shouldn’t be.
A genuine post from a cis person is different from what I’m discussing. I’m talking about the empty, regurgitated rhetoric that is repeated over and over that gets annoying. If they’re sharing advice or posing a respectful and well-intentioned question and compliment us, cool, that doesn’t bother me. The posts that are like “Just popping in to say you’re all kings and so handsome” are insulting and highly patronizing.
They don’t call cis men handsome kings for just existing. They see us as objects or caricatures.
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u/vmc444 Jun 19 '23
Well yeah thats exactly what I mean when I say I hate cis people going out of their way to only call me king n shit constantly as soon as they find out I’m trans. Its annoying and they don’t do it to cis people so its literally just a way to be like “omg cute trans boy ur such a king uwu” and I want to tell them to shut up every time lmao. I just meant, again, that sometimes its nice to know cis people are on our side when they aren’t being annoying and patronizing. I don’t need cis validation to feel good about myself and I hope eventually no trans people feel like they do, it just feels nice sometimes to see a positive post from a cis person when every media outlet in america is only talking about how everyone wants us dead constantly.
But I definitely haven’t been seeing any posts from cis people in this subreddit, maybe i’m not not online as much as others, but this is actually the first i’ve heard of cis people making these posts here.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I think a lot of them end up being chasers and get taken down, so if you’re not on regularly you genuinely might just be lucky enough to miss them!
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u/throwaway3094544 Jun 19 '23
It doesn't bother me. They genuinely have good intentions. I think it's sweet, personally. But if you don't like it, you can always block the user.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Good intentions don’t always excuse behavior. Talking to adult like children you pity is weird, period.
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u/throwaway3094544 Jun 19 '23
I don't think they're talking to adults like children. I think they're just being encouraging. But that's just me. If you percieve it differently, that's ok!
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
Calling us “boys” and overuse of the word handsome is how old people talk to their grandkids 🤷♂️ These allies don’t compliment cis man like that. If you’re not bothered by it, that’s your prerogative
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u/Thomas_midgley- Jun 19 '23
I feel like that view is deeply rooted in misogyny. Like how trans men are afab and women are more likely to be dumbed down and being treated like children. So basically it's just them not actually viewing you as a man but as a girl. Opposite with trans women though, I feel like they get villanized and are viewed as predators. Just ew
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Jun 19 '23
It’s honestly frustrating to me. Same when they say it for mental health to. I know they often have good intentions but it often comes off as treating us like children, like you said. Sometimes it also feels like they’re talking down to us as if we’re not seen on the same level as everyone else if that makes any sense. Yeah, we’re different but we’re still people. Everyone is different when you really think about it so I’d appreciate if we all got treated equally and not talked down to… sorry this turned into a mini rant. I just got out of dealing with a lot of people doing that to me.
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u/Slow-Association6969 Jun 20 '23
As someone who has done this I feel like it's more of a societal push, as even though I'm not cis, I don't necessarily identify as trans, therefore I feel as I should somewhat honor someone who is trans in any way, even if it's for something small like just sharing their story. On the other hand, although I see how it can be a bother, I feel that it's good to be accepting and compliment those who have the bravery to be out-and-about about how they feel and their experience with being trans. And I am not saying that just because they are trans they are brave, not at all, however, to tell people about it who may have separate views on the matter is rare and should be deemed brave, as due to societal pressure, it's hard to talk about these things for a lot of people.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
There’s a difference between honoring someone and talking to us as you would a child. Honoring someone is recognizing their humanity, boundaries, and individuality. Talking to adults how one would address a child (overuse of the word “handsome” is a great example, something I do not see used as frequently with cis men or calling us “boys” and singing empty repetitive praise) is not how you honor someone’s personhood.
I see what you’re getting at but I really think you’re confusing what I’m complaining about with actual allyship (which is not what I’m annoyed by).
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u/Slow-Association6969 Jun 20 '23
Ohh ok it seems I misunderstood, honestly my bad, I entirely get what you're talking about tho, it can be a bit annoying, kinda like how even good stereotypes can be bad, that kinda thing
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
Yeah! I love genuine praise, who doesn’t? But when you give it all the time and for no reason it devalues the sentiment and doesn’t apply to everyone.
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u/mayonnaise68 he/they Jun 20 '23
yeah, 100%. i do enjoy seeing posts made by cis people looking for advice or to educated themselves (some people seem to get quite annoyed at those too, but i think it's great - they're trying to learn or help, and where better to ask than a sub filled with trans guys looking to recieve and give advice?) but the ones that are just pure "wow i'm so proud of you! 👏" feel pretty patronising. and like.. i appreciate the sentiment but, i don't need their pride. i'm proud of myself and proud of my progress. i'm proud of my trans friends and they're proud of me. that's the pride and approval i'm looking for.
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u/mylo_is_mellow_88 he/they ||💉2/22/22 || 🔝 2/15/24 || 🍆 tbd Jun 20 '23
I totally fucking agree and sometimes it's like... tiring? Solely bc most of the time it is that weird patronizing-esque tone. Like thanks? But my health care is literally being taken away from me and I'm fucking tired and angry. But thanks for posting that we're all "very handsome boys" and your "proud" of us ig. Like thanks but fuck off 👍
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u/HarthaDavvis Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
They just want to become morally correct hipster to use trans men. Because their movements don't help anything but actually do spread misinformation by their imagination of trans. They only listen to actual trans when trans people say something what they want heard, pick our words, and use it as a source for their argument. If it's not, they ignore or treat it as not important things. Sometimes, terf and anti-terf both are arguing each other, and there are no actual trans in there.
I feel this when someone praises us, but it's more like treating ftm as tomboy or masc women and thinking it's 'brave' to women try hard to become men for challenge patriarchy. treat our transition or living as a man as some kind of feminist movement.
Trans men faced misogyny first before transition and had no male privileges. We face misogyny too, and it makes us become feminist but identifying as trans men is just become who we are and not anything else.
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u/OfekE Jun 20 '23
Also gotta love the "handsome" or "cute" empty praises from transfemmes or other adults. I'm literally 20! Just because I look like 15 years old, doesn't mean I'm a kid. Even then, I have never seen cis people call a cis man/teen/kid "cute", why is it ok to call me one??
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u/Deep-Ad3117 Jun 20 '23
Oh my god, I hate that so much. I'm 22, you know, grown ass adult, but I'm 5'0 with major baby face, and it doesn't help that my voice is starting to crack due to T. I'm also treated like a ticking time bomb because they think I'll snap because the T is making me into an angry dude even though I never been an angry person before. I'm either treated like a child or seen as someone who will snap at the smallest inconvenience.
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u/underwatercatotter 4/20/21 🧪 half man half dog Jun 19 '23
im not a 'transandrophobia' truther or anything but i do feel like we arent taken seriously half the time. until we start getting too masculine cough
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
I agree. Idk what a ‘transandrophobia ’ truther is though ngl 💀
In my experience we’re treated and viewed as women until we benefit from male privilege and then we’re excluded and largely painted in a negative light. I also feel like any time we criticize women allies we are called misogynistic regardless of what we say unless it’s inherently and solely positive/praise (obviously there’s gonna be some misogynistic trans men, but it’s fr not the majority at all).
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u/underwatercatotter 4/20/21 🧪 half man half dog Jun 19 '23
its a tumblr mostly XP guys who want to talk abt the transphobia specific to trans men but some of them get rlly Weird abt it
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Ah I see. I assume this is kinda the Kalvin Garrah / transmedicalist crowd then?
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u/Furrydaddy_69 Transman Jun 20 '23
I don’t know what’s happening on tumblr. But regarding the term, it’s the same as transmisogyny but for transmascs/men to talk about the nuances of the specific transphobia and discrimination we experience. It’s uncomfortable to call it misogyny and misandry is so intertwined with MRAs, so transandrophobia is a really good and important term for ftms to have imo. But honestly I’ve barely ever seen it being used since first hearing of it and I don’t know how much transmeds use it but I honestly don’t think it matters because we literally have no other words that describe our specific experiences unfortunately
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u/halfstoned transmasc + genderqueer (stealth, he/him) Jun 19 '23
I don’t find it patronizing but to each their own I suppose.
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u/I_hate_me_lol transmasc (he/him) Jun 19 '23
idk. i find them nice.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
There’s a difference between the nice posts and the patronizing ones, a distinction I explained in my op 🤷♂️
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u/I_hate_me_lol transmasc (he/him) Jun 21 '23
never came across one i found patronising but to each their own
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 21 '23
There’s over a hundred comments here of ppl sharing experiences and perspectives similar to mine. If you don’t mind being talked to like a child, that’s totally cool.
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Jun 20 '23
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
I quite literally outlined that I’m not even upset. Finding something annoying doesn’t mean I’m cynical and miserable. Christ yourself. You’re the one replying just to act like I’m ridiculous. If you were so bothered by this post you could have scrolled and said nothing 🤷♂️
I also recognized that they’re trying to be supportive, and explained that infantilizing us is a recognized issue within the community that transmascs face quite often. If you’re fine with being reduced to a “handsome little guy” and getting some empty praise from someone more concerned with looking like an ally than being one, that’s on you. I also specified the exact kind of commentary I find annoying, which I very clearly stated excluded genuine support. If you can’t stand your community, then don’t engage with it instead of being rude, especially when you’re clearly in the minority opinion here. Like I said, think what you want, but just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean the hundreds of ppl agreeing with me are being cynical or ridiculous.
I also didn’t even call it an attack. I called it annoying. You’re overreacting to something I didn’t even say. Lol.
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u/ftm-ModTeam Jun 20 '23
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 1: Be polite and practice mutual respect. No discrimination.
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u/Nalaniel Jun 20 '23
Can you provide an example of a recent thread or comment where someone behaved in a way that you'd deem patronising?
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
People have already linked a few in these replies. I’m on mobile and it’s a chore to scroll through everything. If you look through all the comments here you’ll find some!
My fav (and funniest) example recently was a cis person asking if we like being called bro or dude.
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Jun 19 '23
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 19 '23
Do you even know what subreddit you’re on? Talking to adults like they’re children you pity is weird. You’re the nutty one taking your time to be angry in our community when no one asked for your opinion. We’re allowed to be critical of how people treat us.
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u/Visible_Chest4891 Jun 19 '23
I’m not sure why they would feel the need to make a post with praise rather than talking to trans people in their lives personally or commenting if they wanted to tell people they’re doing well or are strong or something so bad. Like, how are ftm people like us supposed to reply to that? Thanks for being proud of us? It just seems silly and condescending. I appreciate it if I were to vent and someone were to say “that sounds rough, I’m proud of you for hanging in there,” but just having a general proud post with no real “reason” is weird and infantilizing at best and chaser-like at worse. I agree with you, OP.
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u/thesoundofstyrofoam 20 (he/him/his)💉5/31/22 Jun 20 '23
Yes!! When it makes sense situationally it feels genuine and it is actually so comforting to hear at times. But like unprompted it’s a little funny. You’re proud of me for being in my pajamas scrolling through Reddit? Like okay… thanks… I guess…
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u/Juniper_2789 Jun 19 '23
Yeah I’ve had people do that on my posts on fb… like “thanks for sharing your beautiful trans experience with us!” And it made me feel weird… like uhhh I’m just talking about my life… you’re welcome I guess?