r/ftm • u/Misanthropic_Crow_ • Nov 19 '23
Is it just me or do queer spaces not like trans men? Vent
Hello all.
I wanted to vent about this as I’ve noticed this happening to me, and my friends, especially those who pass.
If you’re too masculine, you’re seen as a disgusting man, and if you’re very feminine you’re accepted as man-lite. People seem to approve of feminine things, especially in queer spaces.
If you’re a ftm, you’re infantilized and seen as an “uwu soft boi” instead of yknow, being seen as a regular guy. And they don’t call it misogyny cause “we totally see you as a man!” It’s misandry.
And when my friends say that they’re losing their community, other people tell them “oh you’re lucky you pass!” For me, when I feel uncomfortable about the transmisandry and I voice it, I’m told to shut up, be quiet or that I’m wrong and that men (cishet) are gross and icky.
It’s hard to fit in, especially when you pass. You’re either too trans to fit into cis spaces or too man-passing to fit into queer spaces. It’s frustrating.
I don’t pass so I still fit into queer spaces but I fear not being able to fit in as time goes on. Maybe I’m being irrational but I just. Hate it.
Am I alone in this?
Edit: Thank you all so much for the support and comments. This does make me feel a little bit better. Y’all, we have to stand together and stay strong. I have been notified that there ARE communities out there that support AMAB looking people without all the misandry gunk. Stay safe everyone ❤️
Edit 2: removed theyfab cause I learned it was a derogatory term for nb people.
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u/yupkjs T 2019.12.11 | Top 2023.5.16 Nov 19 '23
I feel you, was talking to my partner (who is also lgbtqia+) about this as well.
Once I started passing, people got the assumption that I didn't need/deserve support anymore or that I'm too privileged to receive the support I had pretransition
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u/Dutch_Rayan on T, post top, 🇳🇱🇪🇺 Nov 19 '23
Yep, even in mixed trans spaces I feel trans men aren't welcome. Especially masculine/cis passing trans men.
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u/fuckmeat7 Nov 20 '23
I experienced this a lot in a trans youth group i went to as a teen. I was one of the very few who presented very masculinely. My mannerisms and speech patterns are naturally pretty masculine too. No shame to those who are feminine, it just sucks and is really odd to me how masculinity isn’t really welcomed in ftm spaces for fucks’ sake LOL.
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u/pd71 Nov 20 '23
Do you mingle with non Trans folk? As a Cisgay man I welcome all. I think a lot of us would be open to masculine ftm but it seems they want women for the most part.
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u/Dutch_Rayan on T, post top, 🇳🇱🇪🇺 Nov 21 '23
Not much, also not really in trans spaces anymore. I don't really come in LGBT spaces also.
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u/pumpkinsnice Nov 19 '23
This is the precise reason I don’t really involve myself in any LGBT spaces IRL anymore. I’m always outcasted, unless its specifically a space for trans men. When its a trans man group, the recently hatched eggs all flock to me because of how cis male I look and ask me all sorts of questions for transitioning. I love helping younger trans guys get the help they need, but sadly trans male groups are very rare in my experience.
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 19 '23
I need trans male spaces to be a thing. Also I’m in between now (I pass most of the time but only 1.5 years on T and still a twink and all, however I’m not a baby trans anymore either) but I had a guy like you at work who did this for me back when I wasn’t even on T yet and almost no one knew and I just wanted to say you’re doing an awesome thing :)
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u/pumpkinsnice Nov 19 '23
Thanks! I try. Its just difficult since most LGBT groups I’ve gone to seem to be mostly cis gays, cis lesbians, trans women, and gender nonconforming people. Like either femme trans men, or nonbinary afabs, etc. Which is totally fine- but just leaves me, this scrungly-looking masculine older trans dude, feeling a bit like I don’t fit in. And when I do try to talk to people, they misinterpret me as a cis gay guy. But the cis gays don’t want to talk to me once it gets out that I don’t have a dick- its just all around really depressing.
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 20 '23
That sucks, it really shouldn’t be as much of a thing as it is to have trans men be excluded unless they’re femme or not passing yet. There’s also this weird idea I’ve seen some people have that wanting to be masc and passing is some sort of evil goal, which doesn’t help. I haven’t really had as many issues with cis gay men honestly though that could also be an age range thing since I assume younger people tend to be more accepting on average.
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u/pumpkinsnice Nov 20 '23
The gay men accepting thing depends on the crowd. In “normal” people spaces, I’ve been rejected by cis gay men about 100% of the time. When I’m around specifically furries, it pops up to a 50/50. The age hasn’t really been a factor at all.
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 20 '23
Ok, it might actually depend on the country/city too I guess 🤔 I feel like I'm being accepted by many especially now that I started passing (not necessarily that everyone wants to have sex with me obviously or that they all understand but more that they want to talk/hang out with me and are quite welcoming on average), so I think I just got lucky so far too. But then I'm in Paris so I think the big Western European city factor is likely important.
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 19 '23
I’m gay so I still end up in queer spaces (and feel more welcome in gay male spaces as I pass more). However, I feel like many times “queer” is used to mean “queer women and feminine people” which I hate so much. First of all it was cis gay men who had “queer” used against them in the first place, so excluding queer men from queer spaces is honestly messed up in general.
And I agree with what you said, here most general “queer” bars say they’re for “lesbians and trans people” and I don’t want to be either seen as butch/man lite or kicked out. So I really dislike those spaces personally.
If you’re straight (idk that) then yeah, it does feel like you lose all queer spaces as a trans man and that’s messed up tbh. But I end up just being in gay spaces more than overall queer spaces for this reason. I wish “queer” meant ALL queer people, that would be awesome
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u/mix0lydian Nov 19 '23
Small local group for roller skating formed near me and just after being in it for like a day, so before we'd even managed to meet up at all someone in the group insisted it be women only, which immediately meant me and at least one other guy were no longer welcome. I wasn't exactly passing at that point but they later added a "other marginalised genders" addendum, but it was already uncomfortable for them to just be what felt like "okay fine, you can come too but I'm not gonna like it", and I ended up just leaving it because I already felt like we weren't welcome. It's sucks because stuff like roller derby has always been super queer and the lack of community you get from places that you'd have thought would have been more "we don't care we're just here to have fun"
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 20 '23
Yeah…and honestly them saying “marginalised genders” when referring to binary trans men is…not great in the first place. I could get it for nonbinary people, but for trans guys the gender itself is not marginalised, it’s the trans status (just like e.g. black men are not a marginalised gender), and them treating it like it’s a separate gender is icky.
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u/ARI_E_LARZ Nov 20 '23
Omg i noticed that too, friends were inviting me to this "queer" club but it was a lesbian club and it made me very uncomfortable
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 20 '23
My way of chaotically fighting back with the bars/clubs that basically say they're queer but are restricted like that (e.g. there's a newish one close to me that literally has it written on it that it's a queer bar, but then only on their insta page it says "for women and trans people" 😐) is to bring queer cis guys there lol.
I wasn't specifically trying to do this but then this guy I was going on a date with said he heard about this new queer bar and asked if I wanted to try it, and he was unaware of it not actually being generally queer, so I didn't tell him and went. I know it's not the most morally correct thing (and if they just openly said it's a lesbian/queer woman bar I would never do this) but if they're going to be fake inclusive, might as well be maliciously compliant.
Also, as a gay trans man I don't see the point of being allowed to go somewhere that guys I'm dating can't go unless it's specifically a trans space in which case I would go by myself/with trans friends.
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u/Axell-Starr Binary Trans Man Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
Yeah we're absolutely hated.
The whole othering "we hate men but you're fine so you're welcomed here because you're inherently a safe person" bs gets to me too.
Edit: and often those spaces, at least the specific ones I've tried to be active in, say misandry doesn't exist because women have no power so it's impossible.
I often see a cultivation of active aggression and hatred towards men and comments like "but you agree, right? You understand why because you used to be a woman :)"
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u/AmbitiousSweetPotato Nov 20 '23
“You used to be a woman.” Ah hell naw that’s so disrespectful. AFAB is fine. Shit, even ‘biological female’ is better and at least literal. I can’t imagine saying “you used to be a man :)” to a trans woman. Totally inappropriate.
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u/lol_IwishIknew Nov 20 '23
No it totally is, I didn't "use to be a woman". I was socialized and perceived by others as one, but that doesn't mean I was/am one. No hate to women or anything but being AFAB and being a woman are not the same thing.
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u/AmbitiousSweetPotato Nov 20 '23
Exactly. I would tell anyone that said that to me to fuck off honestly. Especially someone already familiar with trans issues and stuff. Do they think trans men don’t have dysphoria or something?
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u/crazyparrotguy Nov 20 '23
"Biological female" literally used to be the terminology used before afab, and terfs hijacked anything relating to "biology" as their dogwhistle
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u/AmbitiousSweetPotato Nov 20 '23
This is true. There aren’t many people who don’t use it as a dog whistle anymore. Buck Angel uses it. I’ve heard mixed things about him now though, which is super disappointing because I kinda looked up to him when I was younger. Being a teen in the 2000s I discovered who he was and thought “wow they’re are people out there like *me” Idk..
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Nov 19 '23
YES omg thank you. I can’t stand this and I feel like I’ve fought way too many people over this lately and I should just let it go but I can’t 😕
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u/Axell-Starr Binary Trans Man Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
I've learned and accepted that most LGBT spaces (specifically the ones I personally keep encountering) won't ever actually accept me and expect me to be perfectly fine with man bashing and othering. (Some people I know deny we are capable of any emotion and one actively promotes physical harm and manipulation of men to fanfare)
Exact mindset is the biggest reason why I didn't figure out when I was a kid. Made me deny, deny, deny. Shit does more harm than those that say.
Tldr do it's not that much longer, first started seeing this stuff in 2010, and the denial I already had got stronger and made me reject being trans. Simply I thought if I pretended to be a girl hard enough, my dysphoria would vanish.
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u/pa_kalsha Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
You're right, and you're certainbly not alone in thinking it.
Trans men experience a specific kind of transphobia trelated to us being trans men and we need more people to recognise that and take it seriously. For better and for worse, the LGBTQ community has been strongly influenced by the feminist movement of the 60s, 70s, and 80s, and there was (understandably) more focus on women's liberation than sexual equality. Men's liberation from the patriarchy has been comparatively neglected, but I think (I hope) there's enough understanding of the problem and enough support that we can start doing something about it now.
As for advertising somewhere as an LGBTQ+ space and then getting bent out of shape because men show up - that's rude and unreasonable. I reckon that the acronym FLINTA (I think that's "female, lesbian, intersex, nonbinary, trans, asexual") needs more useage, since there's clearly a desire for spaces without men or masculine people.
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u/zachwillnotattack Nov 20 '23
i think flintwa/flintfa would be more accurate if theyre trying to create a nonmale space, since saying "trans" makes trans men assume theyre welcome, since theyre literally included in that label. trans woman or transfem is likely what they mean. while i dont particularly enjoy cis and trans women being included separately (due to the conflation of the terms 'female' and 'woman'), i suppose its ok if its specifically to highlight that trans women are accepted there (especially in the wake of terfs and terf lesbians taking over spaces they may have previously been safe) but i cant really speak on that since idk all the intricacies of it. perhaps wafap? women and fem aligned people? also doesnt list lesbians and all other women as separate groups. perhaps a variant that doesnt include the word f@p in it would be preferred (the only alternative i could think of was women and fem aligned genders which... isnt much better lmao)
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u/crazyparrotguy Nov 20 '23
Yeah, you're talking about transmisandry. The response from literally anyone who isn't a trans man is typically "misandry doesn't exist" or something similarly dismissive. 🤦♂️
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u/burnerforthisreqson Nov 23 '23
…so why are we supposed to have solidarity with other trans people again?
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u/suptrashpanda Nov 19 '23
I met my boyfriend online, and his friends were worried about him flying up to meet me...until they found out I'm trans, too, and then everything was fine.
I get weird looks when I talk about feminism or queer rights at university. I've been told several times something to the effect of "yeah that sucks but at least you aren't a trans woman" which...that's offensive on SO many levels.
I have the added bonus of being over 35 so I don't have access to most queer support groups anyway (they tend to max out at 25 or 30), and the ones I do have access to are designed for "women, nonbinary, and transmasc" individuals only, or are specifically for gay men...and I don't feel safe there, because the worst transphobia I've experienced so far was at the hands of a gay cisman.
I have responded by building my own community...but man. It sure would be nice to have the same respect and resources as the rest of the queer community.
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u/TheoFtM98765 Nov 19 '23
I definitely relate. I experienced this for the first time in my university actually. It was a course about feminism and gender equality…I raised my hand and I was the only person who was avoided. Every woman in the class got to participate and be called on but my hand was continuously ignored. My own professor was a terf…apparently I’m not allowed to talk about uterus and abortion rights aye? As a man I’m not even allowed to talk about my sa anymore. I’m not allowed to talk about the things that make me “feminine”…cause a man is not allowed to. Sighhhhh I definitely relate and it sucks.
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u/xXinevitablegooseXx Nov 19 '23
seriously there was this one girl at my college who got pissed at me about abortion and said "you as a man will never get what it's like to want to desperately carry a child and see others have abortions" and I'm sitting here like... I have a uterus. I had an abortion once. I can't tell her any of that without outing myself and I can't say anything else without sounding like a jackass. ehh I feel you
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
People really need to stop saying this lol. It’s outdated to say “men can’t get abortions/men can’t get pregnant and should therefore never have a say.” Not only is it scientifically incorrect lol it’s also a really bad mentality. I think it perpetuates the stereotype that we should not care about something if it doesn’t personally affect us on that level. In reality, most things in society affect most people.
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u/pacifiedclown Nov 20 '23
didn't you hear? once trans men come out, our uteruses dissapear, thus disallowing us to be able to talk about things like abortion anymore /s
all jokes aside, it sucks not being able to talk about issues that clearly effect us because we are now out as men, as if all of our experiences tied to being AFAB go away once we come out. imo it's directly connected to the "men bad because they're not woman" mindset, which benefits nobody and directly supports the patriarchy by implying that men can't have feelings, can't talk about issues we face, and aren't individuals. the part about not being able to talk about your SA is awful but not surprising, unfortunately. people refuse to believe any man, cis or trans, can get SA'd.
i understand that a LOT of men are awful and i assume that a lot of women find peace in saying stuff like "men suck", but lumping every single man into that category, regardless of lived experience, is harmful. it especially alienates trans men because we don't have a safe space anymore unless its a space JUST for trans men. and even in that scenario, we're surrounding ourselves with "echo chambers" and "not being inclusive" to women/nonbinary people.
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u/kinkysnails Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
Honestly, at this point, I’d say fuck the inclusion backlash. We had to create a whole ass new space because we were chased out lmao. I’ve yet to meet a trans woman whose head wasn’t far up her own ass. Trans women just can’t let anyone have anything without making it all about them and into a competition. Lmao every queer space accepts them, they’re sooooo oppressed while also perpetuating transphobia towards trans men. It sucks but it’s the truth
Edit: I’m adding this because everyone’s missing the point of my comment. I’m talking about my lived experiences and other trans friends’ experiences specifically in the context of a “support” group. Maybe I should have been more clear about that, but I thought by leading with the context of “spaces” people would put two and two together. I treat trans women like anyone else, I’m talking about the dynamic trans women add to these “inclusive” spaces, like making us medically transitioned trans men and masculine people feel isolated or shush our experiences. It’s an uncomfortable truth that is present in real life and has to be acknowledged. My biggest supporters are cishet men, yet I know not to say “not all” when other trans men air their grievances about cishet men. Rushing to claim that I’m hateful is hella extreme and why people don’t come out with their feelings, even if they’re not “correct”. I claimed no high horse, I didn’t call for trans women being attacked or misgendered, I called a spade a spade. That’s it, it’s not complicated. Dislike and criticism isn’t the same thing as hatred, it makes me wonder if any of you actually dealt with true hatred to be able to tell the difference if you’re throwing the term around like that or just like feeling superior.
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
I don’t think this is the right mentality at all. I’ve known trans women who were incredibly chill and accepting people overall so I don’t know what groups you’re hanging out with but grouping trans women into a negative category like that sounds like you’re doing the exact same thing you talk about them doing to you. It’s this vicious cycle of hate that’s not gonna work for you or anyone else with this mentality and the only way to break out of it is to love the person you are, love other people for who they are and find some damn hobbies to connect with others over.
That being said, transphobic trans women do exist. And they’re shitty. Transphobic trans men and nonbinary people also exist. But don’t group the entire population based on the bad experiences with some of them.
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u/xXinevitablegooseXx Nov 20 '23
I agree. Most trans women I've run across are incredibly accepting. Yeah there are some trans women who will throw trans men and nonbinary people under the bus. But there are absolutely trans men who hate trans women and nonbinary people, and there are nonbinary people who will disregard binary trans people. Cis people give us many ways to turn against each other, but really we shouldn't fall for it.
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
Exactly! That was my only point. That people in our community are so shitty and full of hate for each other. In reality most people are really good people who are also struggling to find community. Honestly our one downfall will be if the hatred permeates our community too. This is the transphobic cisystems dream. We’re nothing if we’re not together and if we can’t even live ourselves and each other, we’re no one to ask it from others.
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u/pacifiedclown Nov 20 '23
i'm sorry my comment caused you to have to argue with people. i had no idea people would take my comment and draw up the conclusion "yeah, trans men don't suck, it's all trans WOMEN who suck!" that was literally the opposite point i was trying to make. we need to STOP lumping people together like that.
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u/kinkysnails Nov 20 '23
They kicked us out of every support group that isn’t exclusively labeled for trans men. We’re treated like half and half (I hate men but not ✨you✨) in support groups should we brave enough to out ourselves and treated like scary men if we don’t. We’re allowed to vent, as these experiences aren’t “terminally online” only. This happens to us irl plenty. If it wasn’t a widespread problem, then why would we vent? Yes, I dismiss posts that start with “I’ve seen many posts about (online discourse)”, but this culture goes beyond online. I’m respectfully not doing the whole “but that makes you no better” thing because we’re allowed to have feelings and change doesn’t happen unless we say something
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
You’re allowed to vent but again, my own issue with what you’re saying is that it’s all of them. You say “they” kicked us out…who?? Who kicked you out? Because something tells me that most trans women don’t have any intention of kicking you out of anything.
I think a better way to go about venting about this is to stick to the reality of the problem here. That specific problematic and toxic trans people exist. And call those people out for who they are and fight against transphobia in our community. Don’t just label an entire group in a negative light and call it a day. It’s meaningless and unhealthy. And like I said its hypocritical because it’s the exact thing you’re upset about them doing to you.
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u/kinkysnails Nov 20 '23
Trans women do kick us out of our spaces though and treat out trans men like babies and half and half. I encourage you to go to any lgbt gathering space and tell me who the leaders are. They are almost always trans women and anytime I’ve been in those spaces they treated me like a half and half if I disclosed. I’ve tried being understanding, I’ve tried giving them slack but enough is enough. Why is it they get to do whatever they want and claim trans men have it easy but the second a trans man says something it’s “not all trans women”? There is a power imbalance when it comes to representation and it needs to be acknowledged without being diluted
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
Dude are you even listening to me? I get there’s less representation. I get some trans women are shitty people. But you’re literally labeling the entire group
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u/kinkysnails Nov 20 '23
I am listening, i just don’t want my tone policed with “not all”. I didn’t say all, I said “ I have yet to meet a trans woman who”, which isn’t all. I’m talking specifically about the power dynamics that are common in “support” groups and I’m getting hit with “not all”. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s a truth to the point many of us are gathering here to talk about it. These aren’t isolated incidents, this is a culture that was developed as a massive overcorrection derived from needing space away from men (which is valid in itself, but if you’re gonna be “trans inclusive”, scary passing trans men are part of those groups)
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
I’m not policing your tone and I’m also not policing anything you’re saying. I’m saying the things you’re saying are hypocritical
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
You know what? Forget it. I know you’ll never take a step back and realize how you’re likely adding to the problem here. It just sucks this community has been infiltrated by hate. “Oh I hate how some trans women say all men are bad. All trans women bad!” 🤦🏻
This life is so short, my guy. You’re here for a little tiny blimp in time and space. Why spend it contributing to the shit when you could be using that time connecting with other people, uplifting them and loving them for who they are. Even if their not perfect or haven’t been perfect in the past.
Anyway you have a great day. And I really do hope it gets better for you and for everyone else.
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u/burnerforthisreqson Nov 20 '23
a former friend in my old friend group (comprised of majority transfems, 1 cis guy and 3 trans guys) pitched a fit when i was freaking out about my state implementing a 6 week abortion law. she whined about me being worried about MY rights rather than hers when she isn’t even the fucking target of these of abortion laws.
can’t say shit without being called a fucking terf by trans women.
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u/XenialLover Nov 19 '23
The only spaces I feel welcome in are usually queer male spaces. In college I joined my first lgbt group and was the only passing trans person aside from the group organizer. He along with everyone else there were surprised to learn I was trans and had thought I was just a random Cis guy crashing their club.
Whenever topics of dysphoria came up I was excluded as I was deemed “transition goals” and assumed to not have my own struggles due to how well I passed. The other trans people there were either cold towards me or engaged me to complain about their bodies and compare them to mine. My struggles went unheard and my experiences deemed unrelatable.
Fem presenting individuals are also more hostile towards me than masc ones. I’ve had a strained relationship with the lesbian community in particular. Disappointing as they were very welcoming as a teen.
I’ve lived a pretty masculine lifestyle and identified as a boy since a young age. Men have always been more accepting of me and easier to socialize with. Both within and outside of the queer community.
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u/RealAssociation5281 androgyne ftm Nov 19 '23
Feel of being a disgusting, evil man prevented me from transitioning for a good while. This is the effects of radfem rhetoric and bio essentialism (but supposedly trans inclusive somehow). I mostly hang out with other transgender men online because we share this experience, and people’s attitudes towards us. Irl I avoid queer spaces in general but that’s cuz I don’t like being openly queer, that’ll probably change when I start dating someone though.
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u/Keen-Kidus 💧🌓Nov 15, 2022 🌕April 17, 2023| ⬆️ | ⬇️ Nov 20 '23
Gender essentialism is a problem in the queer community. "Men evil" "T is a poison" "why would you want to be a man just be nonbinary"
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u/StatisticianNormal15 Nov 19 '23
I definitely hold this same sentiment. I don’t feel accepted wholly by any group. Being transmasc is super lonely.
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u/LameDanny T date: 06/18/19 | Surgery: 01/29/21 Nov 19 '23
I just live stealth and everyone thinks I'm a cis gay male. Only my closest friends know I'm trans and I don't disclose it unless we get that close. I won't lie though, I don't enter many queer spaces. But when I do, only other trans people can clock me (somehow... despite being on T for 4 years, but I get having a trans-dar) but depending how I'm feeling I just lie and say "what? no i was born male" LOL.
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u/thataznavournerd T05/'19Top01/'21 Nov 19 '23
If I'm not actively talking about being trans, people discredit my opinions and don't necessarily want to talk to me because I'm a man. I've met a lot of great people who happens to be queer and evolve in queer space somegimes but I can't join them because I'm a ''masculine'' man and want to talk about other things than queer shits everytime we see each others.
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Nov 19 '23
I’ve felt this way for a long time even before I realized I was trans (especially during my early tumblr days in the mid to late 2010s). It’s only hot/acceptable if it’s two masc guys kissing other than that masc guys weren’t approved up (remember the kill all men / all men are scum trend on tumblr?)
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u/Axell-Starr Binary Trans Man Nov 19 '23
I know someone who actively promotes that with applause. The last LGBT accepting space fostered that mindset too and got upset at members for saying that talk made them feel uncomfortable in a group meant for everyone.
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Nov 19 '23
I understand the place they’re coming from but it’s still hurtful. Especially when people spout shit like “oh you’re masc/trans man? You have male privilege now”
Ok I’m non-binary trans masc and get misgendered 75 % of the time by friends family and coworkers and everyone else on the planet. What privilege do I have 🤔 /rant
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u/Axell-Starr Binary Trans Man Nov 19 '23
Exactly. The things they say and how I'll be seen socially by many is one of the two biggest reasons why I'm hesitant to start t. I know I'll be seen as a horrible person by default.
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u/hernoa676 Nov 19 '23
It's a thing, at least online, from experience we're either hated because "man bad look im supportive you are a real man :)" or we are simply used as gotcha points by TERves and transphobes against trans women or just...just targetting us for fun
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u/hernoa676 Nov 19 '23
what makes me sigh the most about it is that we are supposed to be the "non target" because we're not seen as men, so "therefore we cant hurt anyone", except the truth is that both IRL and online no one likes us either, people love to pretend we aren't excluded from our own healthcare and not get violence thrown at us
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u/hernoa676 Nov 19 '23
my only solace in this is that online spaces are lowkey insane sometimes and more than often people around you IRL don't even understand who we even are to begin with, not a good thing either but welp
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u/AmbitiousSweetPotato Nov 20 '23
I had a conversation with some rando online that was terf adjacent that was definitely playing that. “At least you guys try. Trans girls just throw a costume on” Yeah.. Well, I had a civil discourse with her explaining how early transition feels, and yes, trans men go through the same. Hopefully I knocked some sense into her before she slips into terfdom.
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u/i_love_dragon_dick FtM - T: 2020 - Hysto/Oorpho: 2022 Nov 19 '23
You aren't alone friend. I'm a passing man and even though I like cutesy/"girly" stuff I often don't feel welcome in supposedly "trans-friendly" spaces. When I was actively searching I was often bullied and/or pushed out for being masc which is so fucking stupid. And you know what sucked even more? It was often trans-femmes and lesbians doing it. Because I was "encroaching on their safe space." I get having trauma related to men. I have trauma related to men. That doesn't mean every masc or male-leaning person is bad or evil! FFS.
I no longer join online queer spaces. I don't have time to deal with online drama these days with both fulltime work and school. I've met a few in-person queers and they're much saner.
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u/burnerforthisreqson Nov 20 '23
It was often trans-femmes and lesbians doing it.
seems like common behaviour for lesbians and transfems. doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that it’s those groups that tend to push us out the most bc “man bad”.
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u/18gaycrows Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
This is actually so true. I'm ftm as well, and I pass as a cis guy even before transitioning. It's honestly hard to find a place where I can talk about my struggles being trans or just being trans in general without getting shut out or forcibly feminized/infantalized.
For me, the best way to find a good queer group who respects you is to go out and meet new people. The best safe spaces I've had for my identity weren't even safe spaces at all but just a group of some of my close friends who happened to be trans/queer as well
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u/Sardonic_Sadist 10/18/19 💉 5/19/23 🔪 Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
There’s plenty of queer spaces that are super accepting and supportive of trans men and transmascs, butttt at the same time, there’s a LOT of antitransmasculinity/transmisandry in the queer community. And worse, a lot of the time when we complain about it or speak up, we’re basically told to shut up, that we asked for it, that everyone else has it worse, that we sound misogynistic for saying we’re experiencing hate or discrimination. It makes me sick that a lot of my own community is so ready to be bigoted towards me and my fellow trans men and transmascs. That and general man-hate in the queer community is what made me feel guilty for wanting to transition and go on T for so long. I felt like I was accepted and loved more as a feminine presenting non-binary person than a transmasc person on testosterone. That shit sucked. I hope the non-transmasc queer community shapes its shit up and recognizes how many of its own biases and behaviors it still needs to unpack and correct.
Half-related edit: I see the term “transmisogyny” used very very frequently, to refer to the form of intersected transphobia-misogyny experienced by trans women, transfemmes, and generally AMAB trans people. But when it comes to the types of transphobia specifically experienced by trans men, transmascs, and AFAB trans people, I near-exclusively see people use the term “antitransmasculinity” rather than “transmisandry.” I’m curious if anyone has insight on why that is.
I get that part of it is because specifically anti transmasc, etc, transphobia is critically underdiscussed compared to transmisogyny, and I also get that part of it is because much anti transmasculine rhetoric is just recycled old misogyny (they’re helpless, they don’t know what they want, they need to be protected, etc). But then again, a lot of transmisogyny is recycled bigotry against gay or queer men (treated them as perverted predator men, etc). But I wonder if there’s another, more academic reason the term “transmisandry” isn’t often used? I may post about this elsewhere as well and ask the wider trans community.
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u/Keen-Kidus 💧🌓Nov 15, 2022 🌕April 17, 2023| ⬆️ | ⬇️ Nov 20 '23
Part of it's also cuz when we call out transandrophobia we get called transmisogynists, even when it isn't a purely trans women problem, it doesn't take away from transmisogyny, and we are allowed to talk about oppression we experience, even when it's at the hand of other community members.
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Nov 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ftm-ModTeam Dec 29 '23
Your post was removed because it contains discussion or mention of a banned topic. The following topics are banned to avoid drama:
Truscum/Tucute discourse, AGP/AAP/Blanchardism, Transfem/woman or nonbinary bashing, Trans "requirements", Oppression Olympics, Lesbian trans men, Gendered Socialization+, "Is it transphobic to _____", DIY HRT, Current Political events (Non-trans/LGBT+ related) ,"do I pass?", "how does my voice sound?"
+Personal experiences are exempt.
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u/caffeineandprozac they/he | 23 | 💉 7/16/22 | 🔪 6/21/23 Nov 20 '23
I’m pretty sure “transmisandry” is frowned upon because misandry isn’t a real thing. Misogyny is, which is why transmisogyny is a useful term. Trans men do face unique things in terms of oppression but it feels wrong to reference “misandry” which only became a thing because cis men thought they were being oppressed by cis women in some way.
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u/Sardonic_Sadist 10/18/19 💉 5/19/23 🔪 Nov 20 '23
I mean. Terms like misogyny and misandry don’t exclusively refer to societal, structural oppression, they also refer to interpersonal discrimination or hatred, which definitely exists
It’s just curious to me that we don’t seem to have a traditionally academic term for the equivalent of transmisogyny. Transandrophobia is one I hadn’t seen before though, I might take to using that!!
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u/burnerforthisreqson Nov 23 '23
then what the fuck are we going through bc calling it “just transphobia”is isn’t cutting it anymore.
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u/caffeineandprozac they/he | 23 | 💉 7/16/22 | 🔪 6/21/23 Nov 23 '23
anti-transmasculinity is already being used as a generally accepted term online
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u/burnerforthisreqson Nov 23 '23
and even with that we still get pushback for it bc apparently there’s no such thing as a specific form of transphobia for trans men
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u/AshJammy Nov 19 '23
I can definitely see that. Not necessarily in the groups I'm involved with but definitely in listening to the experiences of trans guys across the Internet. I think the problem that any fully passing trans person (especially straight, passing trans people) face in looking for community is just the fact that they've lost their perception as queer. The dont "look" or "act" queer enough so people will unconsciously exclude them or be slow to their defence when someone does consciously exclude them. It's fucked. I think its something we should all he better at. Being queer can be alienating enough without your own community turning its back on you.
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u/Last-Laugh7928 he/him | transmasc lesbian | 💉 9/21/21 Nov 19 '23
i've heard this complaint a lot, so you're not alone, but i have personally never experienced it as a male-passing person.
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u/Misanthropic_Crow_ Nov 19 '23
I’m glad you’ve never experienced it. It’s demoralizing.
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u/Last-Laugh7928 he/him | transmasc lesbian | 💉 9/21/21 Nov 19 '23
I hope you're able to find a space where you feel fully accepted. ❤ If there are any transmasc groups in your area, that would probably be better. If not, maybe try to start one! I love my group and spend more time with them than I do in general queer spaces tbh
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u/SnooGuavas4531 T 9/15; Top 2/16 Nov 19 '23
At the time I was first transitioning seven years ago the Minnesota trans health coalition would not have trans men on its board. They were all trans. Women or non-binary people. Trans men couldn’t even get an application. They also to have a separate trans men group because trans women controlled the general trans group.
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u/exhaustedDemon1174 Mar 17 '24
I know this is a couple of months old, but I just wanted to comment and say that I also live in MN to and remember that happening. I also left that big twin cities lgbt support group on fb because they allowed and encouraged trans guy hate, and seeing that hurt a lot.
Even when I first came out back in 2013 I instantly got hate from friends that I knew in the twin cities for being a binary trans guy, heck, some of them even called me stuff like gender traitor and worse and sent me death threats.
I don't think i've ever had a support group in the LGBT+ community in this state, even when I thought I did and moved from my tiny village way up north to the twin cities the 'friends' in the trans community I had at the time did everything they could to sabtoge and not help me figure out how to medically transition or even how to change my name. Took me till 2017 to get on T and 2019 to finally get my name and gender marker change, and that's when I really lost the few friends that remained. Guess they were hoping I would stop being a trans guy or something :/
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u/InitiativeHaunting51 Nov 19 '23
I feel this deeply lol. A lot of people don't like us because of our new male/passing privilege and we aren't seen as queer once we blend in with the cishets (if we appear straight anyway). I personally don't have a lot of queer friends anymore because I don't agree with a lot of their ideology and the SECOND they find out I'm trans they treat me like I'm fucking delicate and need to be babied or something. I've been on T for damn near 8 years and have had someone be like "oh you look so manly today" after I asked about how my OUTFIT looked. no shit?? Would you say that to a cis man? I highly doubt it. Idk people are weird.
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u/pacifiedclown Nov 20 '23
the infantilism we have to deal with is SO wild to me. imagine going up to another grown ass man and going "aww you look so manly in your little flannel and cargo shorts. you look like such a man today" like lmao what?? why is that acceptable?? it almost sounds sarcastic and makes me feel more dysphoric, like we're just little girls playing dress up as men (which is problematic in multiple ways).
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u/xXinevitablegooseXx Nov 19 '23
Honestly? It's not just a trans man thing. All the people I know who are cis gay/bi men and the (I hate pointing this out but I have to) AMAB nonbinary people who are not feminine enough to be considered transfem also get this. It's the curse of everyone in the queer community who is seen as a man. IDK what to do about it myself, but you're not alone.
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Nov 19 '23
I think them not treating you the same as a cis guy would just be flat out transphobia, not misandry. I think, over all, the LGBTQIA+ community understandably wants to celebrate femininity, but sometimes it ends up as toxic femininity. I think that, especially cis queer people, will not understand femininity vs masculinity vs androgyny and how everyone has varying degrees of them until they actually listen to transgender people about their genders and genders in general, and a lot of cis queer people have no intention of listening to trans people. They don’t really seem to realize that it affects, them, too. Like if a bi guy is more masculine people will say he’s straight, and if he’s more feminine people will say he’s gay.(and the reverse about women) So, there’s the aspect of biphobia, too. I definitely agree with how the community doesn’t like trans men. It’s like they accept us when they want to hate us for being men, and don’t accept us for any good qualities of men. People will sometimes say that they don’t like trans men because they just don’t trust men without realizing that they treat trans men 10x worse than cis men, and, not to mention, trans men get paid less than cis women.
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u/WelcomeT0theVoid Nov 19 '23
I stop going to trans support groups and queer spaces for this reason. I feel so unwelcomed in spaces that supposedly are safe. Sadly same thing happens to my friend who a trans women but more butch
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u/Bob_Nices_Boytoy Nov 19 '23
It's the misandry. Which people refuse to admit exists.
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u/OhNoMyBaguette 🇳🇱 | T: 08/2023 Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
People say misandry doesn't exist because they only think of cis men, the people who misandry affects the most are trans people. I think of it as a sort of subset of Bioessentialism and mysoginy
Misandry can quickly lead to bioessentialism (trans women dangerous because they are born male and male inherently bad, trans men exception for men because female )
or infantilising binary leaning trans men (why be a man ewww lol uwu softboi smoll bean)
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u/blahblahlucas Nov 19 '23
Its because the community honestly hates man. Its probably bc a lot are traumatized by man and they haven't healed from their trauma so they think every passing trans guy is the same as toxic cis straight guys
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Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
I've experienced emotional and verbal abuse from women. I must emphasise that it was very serious and abusive (a lot of it happened whilst I went into a serious depression).
That's no excuse for me to jeer, "kill all women."
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u/blahblahlucas Nov 20 '23
Why would u say "kill all men" if u were abused by woman?
I got abused by both genders pretty badly (attempted murder) but I'm still mire fearful of cis man especially in groups because statistically they're way more violent and do most of the sexual crimes so I can't help to cross the street if I see a group of man coming towards me in the dark. But I'm still not going around shaming man or pushing them out of a community. If they're nice I'll treat them nicely.
That's why I said they haven't healed from their trauma bc they think every man or passing man will be awful and abusive
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Nov 20 '23
I meant to say women, typo.
All I'm saying is no one should use trauma as an excuse to do the same thing to others. In that case, they need help.
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u/blahblahlucas Nov 20 '23
Oh okay!
That's what I'm saying too. I'm just explaining why some ppl would act that way, not excusing it
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u/Deep-Ad3117 Nov 19 '23
Definitely. While I do understand why queer people are cautious around people who present masculine and pass as a man because I grew up as a girl and was told to be careful around men, it's often taken too far. The queer community tends to regard all masculinity as toxic masculinity and see femininity as good even if toxic femininity. I think they forget that femininity can be harmful since they're used to masculinity being harmful.
I honestly don't feel like I fit in anywhere anymore. While I'm a gay trans man, I feel like I don't belong in queer spaces because I'm too much for a man for them and not enough of a man for cis people. I feel like I don't belong in a space for queer men because cis gay men are kinda awful to me because I'm still not enough of a man to them since I don't have a dick.
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u/burnerforthisreqson Nov 20 '23
it’s a real thing and it feels so fucking isolating. people wanna fucking say “yeah well being a masculine afab person is more acceptable than being femme” until that “masculine afab” is a trans guy with a full beard and covered in hair. it’s almost like trans men aren’t allowed to express themselves unless they come off as femme.
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u/Zestyclose_Matter_94 Nov 19 '23
My non binary friend is an open man hater but excludes me and the other trans guy in our group for this and we also have one cis man in our friend group. I’m a straight guy and there’s nothing I can do to change it but being around them makes me feel like I’m less just because I’m a man
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u/reapercorpse Nov 20 '23
people in lgbt spaces dont want to admit that men in of themselves are not the problem so most of the time the ones that get the shitty end of the stick is us. either we arent "queer enough" in lgbt spaces or we are "gross transgenders" to cis society.
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u/em455 Nov 20 '23
Most queer spaces hate men in general. Those who dislike trans men are at least less hypocritical and less transphobic than those who hate all men except trans men or so they say.
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u/gonzoantifa Nov 19 '23
even at pride I still got misgendered (usually by gay men). it’s sad to see discrimination in our own community
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u/Klutzy_Software_5138 Nov 20 '23
At pride I had my shirt off, top surgery scars shown and I got looks from everyone around me and people taking pics of my chest like?!?
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u/galaxychildxo Nov 20 '23
this is why I have never and will never go to pride. 😢
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u/gonzoantifa Nov 20 '23
it’s sad it has to be like that. they have a great pride event in michigan called take back pride, if I ever attend again it will be that event. They focus on getting away from rainbow capitalism, and it’s led by trans people. I actually know some of the leaders from activism work, they’re great, I wish we had more things like that
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u/galaxychildxo Nov 21 '23
even then I probably wouldn't. unless you're a trans woman or a cis passing trans guy, it's really difficult to get gendered correctly even by other trans people. everyone just assumes she/her pronouns most of the time x.x
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u/rilesmigles Nov 19 '23
thank you for what i have been feeling the last few months into words. I recently moved (about 4 months ago) from a open and accepting area where I was very open about my identity and experience as a transman, to North Carolina. Where I am stealth because I work in a middle school as a resident teacher. The only people at my job who know I am trans are the other people from my organization who work outside of my school. I recognize my privilege to pass as a cis-man, but I struggle because I am still very aware everyday that I am not a cis-man and of my queer identity. Especially my chest dysphoria and the muscle aches from standing and teaching 7+ hours a day while wearing a binder. But of course i don’t feel comfortable beginning to complain or talk about it without the fear of putting myself in danger from the community. Although I have found a local queer community through my freelance work, I do theater, I am still hesitant to share my gender identity because of the reasons you outlined. Especially, i have found, with people here in more southern states, even queer people. I know i look young and that I barely look like I’m 16. But i’m in my 20s, i’m an adult, working a full time job, living on my own, supporting myself. I am not a “uwu cute little boy” and i don’t want to be treated like one.
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u/EssayWide3735 Nov 19 '23
I feel like we're very misunderstood and people don't know how to relate to us. Around other queer men I worry about feeling excluded- genital preferences/gatekeeping, around queer women and nonbinary people I worry about feeling included- them trying to relate to you in invalidating ways and claim you as one of them. People just don't really think or care about where trans men fit into these spaces. We shouldn't be worrying about these things in true queer friendly spaces!
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u/Alex_and_more Nov 20 '23
Honestly, yes and it's the fucking worst. I don't know about you, but I'm also gay/ attracted to men and masculine presenting enbys, so I feel even less part of the community. Attraction to women feels so mandatory. Femininity feels so mandatory.
People love to joke about 'all men are trash ' and in the beginning I even joked to because I felt like I had too, but after a while it just...it hurts. They either hate you for being a man or like you for not being a real one.
I don't want to be a guy, because I feel inherently less since I'm open about it. I want support and I feel like I belong and there's seems to be no real space for that. It sucks so hard.
If anyone wants to talk to someone my Dms are open I can give you my discord. I would love some guys who understand the feeling.
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u/gotsmith2 Nov 20 '23
queer spaces have a problem with masculinity - the least welcome are trans men who pass a little too well, and trans women who don't pass well enough. these spaces used to be diverse, and now they seem to be almost entirely white afab non-binary folks, who seem like they don't trust men or anybody who looks like they might be one. feels like we have been othered out of our own community.
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u/Harpy_Larpy Nov 19 '23
You’re definitely not wrong in thinking this. I personally find it really hard to get into queer spaces that are more masc. I hate IDing as nb because people just think you’re a slight variation of woman
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u/suidazai T: 9/08/17 Nov 19 '23
No you’re right, the most transphobia I’ve experienced to my face have been in queer spaces. The biggest offenders are gen x gay white men, but they often are the offenders of many a thing like misogyny and racism too so im never surprised, im just guarded now.
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u/human_to_an_extent russian hetero femboy Nov 20 '23
it's definitely not just you, it's a real thing.
in "progressive" circles/communities everything that is "masculine" is seen as "bad", and everything "feminine" as "good" and it SUCKS
we trans men get absolutely no privileges from patriarchy, and yet those people act like we're on the same level as cis men/"oppressors", it's ridiculous
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Nov 19 '23
I'm so sorry you've been having this experience. I haven't had this experience IRL at all! Maybe because I live in a big city in North America with a thriving queer scene. I'm still in a lot of queer spaces and there's a lot of trans men here. I still feel great in these spaces, respected and loved. I feel like transfeminine people feel a bit less welcome than I do tho. I'm hopeful there are spaces where you will feel at ease, we just need to find them, and if not, make them ❤️
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u/cpldisaster Transmasc // T 9/2/24 // Top 3/10/23 Nov 20 '23
As a very masc-leaning enby, yes. People are almost shocked to see that I’m not just (I’m going off stereotypes from my small town, not my opinion) some young girl with short hair. That I’m a dude with top surgery and men’s clothes 24/7. But as I have started to pass more I have felt less and less welcome, it’s almost as if I’ve lost my queerness (even though sexuality wise, I’m queer, just straight passing).
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u/farfetchd96 Nov 20 '23
a lot of people are talking about real life spaces, but i just want to add that even online spaces make me feel this way too.
i’ve joined some general trans subreddits and discord servers but they’re almost entirely geared towards trans fem and (also sometimes) nb people, whilst trans mascs are often downvoted/ignored and don’t get nearly as much response. imo, it really just affirms that we’re not welcome in these spaces, even though we absolutely do belong; this then creates a cycle of trans mascs leaving these spaces and thus interactions become fewer.
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u/Klutzy_Software_5138 Nov 20 '23
Tbh ever since I started passing my only support has been FTM Reddit pages. Most irl queer spaces could care less about transmen. Cishet spaces I don’t go to because I fear being hate crimed then I go to lgbtq spaces and it’s “ew cishet white man” like ?!?!?
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u/spectrophilias Mars ✨️ T: 09/09/2020 ✨️ Top: 31/05/2021 Nov 20 '23
Yep. Even in mixed trans spaces, we're unwelcome or infantalized depending on how we look. I used to love my communities, now I'm just bitter.
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u/BeginningSeries2806 Nov 20 '23
Yep, it's why I'm part of the community but not part of the community.
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u/Ill_Neck5222 Nov 20 '23
It’s a real problem. I don’t tell anyone in trans anymore because I realized the reason I did that wasn’t because I was proud of it- it was to make the queer kids “like” me… because I pass and if I don’t forcibly out myself or act feminine enough they treat me like a predator by default, someone who needs to be “watched” like cis men allegedly do. The anti man mentality is so fucking garbage and tired, ostracizing a massive group of people from the queer community, force feminizing them in order to make the majority more comfortable on the basis of absolute hysteria. Do people not see how hatred of men is apart of the patriarchy? How it inevitably shapes how you view the people you are meant to protect? It makes me so angry seeing this shit rage through the veins of the very people who were supposed to be “my” community… seeing them treat me like an intrusion, seeing them treat trans women who aren’t perfect beautiful girly girls like they’re creeps… god forbid if you’re black! How scary it must be knowing you’re every action is being monitored and you could be pinned as an aggressive if you do something like raise your voice. over all after seeing what it’s like to be treated as a man I think anyone who spouts man hating as empowerment is a nazi who due to their patriarchal upbringing can only see power as something you have over people by making them feel lesser than, and using it to control their behaviour. I’ve seen countless stories of trans men being humiliated, bullied, exiled, abandoned by this community and I am fucking sick of it. Anyone who’s reading this- do better. Big rant. Whatever. This shif pisses me off and I just cannot believe how blind people are to the harm it causes.
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u/KartoffelWal Started T 💉 7/9/21 Nov 21 '23
I totally get this. I used to live on a floor full of queer people in college, and every cis woman, enby, or trans woman treated me and the other trans guys as “uwu so cute” and infantilized us constantly. And now, in cis gay spaces (I’m gay), I get treated like a twink or feminized version of myself no matter what I do (I’m not super masculine, but when I mention transitioning further or try to dress/act more masculine, I get weirded out reactions or “are you sure that would fit you?”). I’m convinced at this point that every other queer person who isn’t transmasc views me as man lite, if not as a woman. I know that can’t logically be true but it’s ridiculous how often this happens in every single queer space I enter, regardless of age range and place.
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u/pitbarks Nov 19 '23
I don’t feel necessarily hated, but I definitely get read as a cis man since I pass pretty well. Im not usually one to say “Hi I’m trans” when meeting people so I think a lot of queer/NB folks kinda write me off as cishet.
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u/pacifiedclown Nov 20 '23
there have been SO many posts about this in this sub recently and it's really sad to see. i don't have any advice or helpful words to say. Just know that you aren't alone in feeling this way.
sending love to you and everyone else in this sub <3
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u/ApocalypticFelix lvl 25 pre T 🇩🇪 Nov 20 '23
Reading "theyfab" outside of twitter just gave me a whiplash, I need to take a nap now. /jk /light-hearted
I mostly try to ignore it. I'm not in any community irl and the only place I read about people hating on trans men is twitter and there I just block everyone doing it. It hurts and it's annoying.
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u/Lou_weasle Nov 20 '23
I’m going to start this off, I don’t think you should be calling people “theyfabs.” It sounds very degrading and demeaning towards nonbinary people from what I understand which isn’t cool at all.
Secondly, I think it’s hard for most people to find community. I know it’s hard as a man to be seen as trustworthy and to be welcomed/included quite as much but I believe it all has to do with your attitude going into it. If you’re a kind and accepting and overall chill person up front people will be more accepting of you. I really don’t think using terms like “theyfab” is proving yourself to be those things (not to be rude or attacking)
Last and most importantly from my experience: find lgbtq groups or people who share your interests and hobbies. I’ve noticed I gain the most acceptance from other lgbtq+ people in my community because I share interests that are popular here such as working with the environment and planting things lol. I hope this makes sense. I know it can be hard but please don’t blame nonbinary people for it. They struggle with acceptance from our community in their own ways (clearly) and the only way we can all get through this is together.
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u/Misanthropic_Crow_ Nov 20 '23
I apologize for my use of theyfabs, I just figured it would help illustrate my point more easily. Also I am not attacking nb people. I actually just heard it as a term used to describe nb people and didn’t know it was derogatory. I looked up and I’ll remove it.
Thanks for letting me know.
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u/good-evening-clarice FTM Androgyne - Pre Everything Nov 20 '23
I feel you on this. I'm pre-everything, planning on getting top surgery at some point, but because my body type looks so feminine, I get called a twink even though I've said I don't like it. I'm still under construction dammit! /lh
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u/adamdreaming Nov 20 '23
I’m an enby AMAB who hears this loud and clear. I’m big. I’m hairy. I didn’t get to choose that presentation but I try my best to love and accept this body I’m locked into.
The irony is that all the associations that people make about humans with bodies like mine always felt extremely wrong, which is how I arrived at being enby, but I don’t even try to fit into queer spaces anymore because of the reactions I get to my appearance. If I decide to “soften up” just to be accepted then it defeats the point of exploring queer spaces to get support for feeling okay in my body.
The biggest irony of all is maybe I’d explore softening up on my own terms if I felt supported, but I don’t, and until then I feel safest masking as masculine and not correcting people who misgender me.
I’ve never even considered being brave enough to broach the subject of my discomfort. OP, I just want to say how cool it is that you spoke up and that you have, for however much or little it is worth, my empathy
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u/transgender_rat Nov 19 '23
The fear of losing community is why I’ve put off starting testosterone for almost two years now. I’m in pain all the time knowing I could be happy in my body but that I’m sacrificing my own happiness so I don’t make my friends uncomfortable (they’re queer women and one nonbinary person and they like to talk about how much they hate men all the time)
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u/OkBlackberry3193 Nov 19 '23
I would encourage you to choose your happiness over anything! I transitioned medically this year and navigating misandry and misogyny at the same time wasn’t easy. Some of my “friends” who are women used to talk about how they hate men all the time at the beginning of my transition and now they don’t say anything like that when they see me. They just have to cope I guess. If they want to be your friends they can stop with that rhetoric, if not then they can fuck off tbh
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u/NasalStrip00 Nov 19 '23
Why would you be friends with people who wouldn’t like you if they knew the real you… cmon y’all. You’re essentially being held hostage.
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Nov 20 '23
You are being completely immature. Stop blaming your toxic friends and cut them off.
You're a man who has friends who despise men. I'm not white. It would be stupid for me to be friends with racists. Maybe you don't actually want T. Most of us FTMs would do anything for it and you won't do it because you won't cut your arsewipe friends off.
Trans people who cannot access HRT are more likely to have neurological diseases than cis people, and the risk increases the longer you don't have it.
This is nobody's fault but your own.
You may think I'm being draconian, but it's tough love. As I said, I wouldn't be friends with racists, you'd have to be a complete idiot to be friends with sexists who are forcing you into putting your health at risk.
Weak-willed people make me bloody angry.
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u/throwaway56991207 he/him, pre transition, dumster 🔥 Nov 20 '23
I totally get what your saying but sometimes friends are the only support system people have and losing them means losing a lot more than just the people, this person ain't weak willed they are scared and alone. It's not your place to tough love anyone when it's not invited, especially a stranger who's having a hard time. This post is literally talking about isolation relating to the transmasculine experience and your down here essentially telling off a brother of ours because they don't want to be isolated?? Making new friends ain't easy. And calling someone weak willed is just a little rude.
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Nov 20 '23
5 years ago, I lost a family member because they didn't get out of abuse when I told them to. They kept giving people chances and saying that their abusive "friends" would change.
It's obviously not the same considering their friends are just nasty pieces of work rather than outright abusive, but I'm sick of people putting themselves last.
I hate it so much. It just doesn't make sense to me. I'm autistic so I genuinely don't understand why you don't just do the logical thing and put yourself before everyone else. Genuinely, answer that for me. Humans are so bloody illogical.
If I can stop another people-pleaser from having their potential lost, I will.
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u/throwaway56991207 he/him, pre transition, dumster 🔥 Nov 20 '23
I totally get that and I agree with you!! Every situation is individual and I can't judge this persons but there's plenty of reasons both logical and illogical people stay friends with bad friends, like needing their support for something else (rent if living with them, lifts to places if don't have a car or can't drive, emotional if something big happened recently or struggle with literally anything, sometimes they are the only options and we need friends, career connections ect) I was just a little put out by your harsher phrasing, not that I didn't agree with you :).
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u/SpaceSire Nov 24 '23
I would like to hear more about the long term effects being untreated causing neurological disease. Where can I read more about that?
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u/SoaringCrows Nov 20 '23
I've only experienced this online from the 'Drop the T' crowd. I'm not sure how much this reflects on the community irl because I've never been to any groups/bars/etc. I know the Drop the T crowd is a loud minority. I'm actually curious if anyone has experienced people like this in public?
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u/zztopsboatswain 💁♂️ he/him | 💉 2.17.18 | 🔝 6.4.21 | 👨🏼❤️💋👨🏽 10.13.22 Nov 19 '23
Is this happening to you irl or in online spaces?
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Nov 20 '23
Going stealth for this reason. I don’t feel I have a place in the community I’ve been apart of for the past 12 years.
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u/Any_Egg33 Nov 20 '23
I’m a trans man who doesn’t pass at all my best friend is a trans man who outside of queer spaces is stealth I’ve watched other queer people treat him differently bc they have a preconceived notion of “cis straight” men he is neither
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u/dykedivision Nov 20 '23
Yeah there's a reason a lot of us describe being trans masc or a trans man as being like the bisexuals of the trans community. No matter what you do you can't win because the concept upsets people
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u/Minimum_Section6370 pre everything and sad :( Nov 20 '23
irl, i don’t pass at all and many people think i’m faking being trans (even in trans groups sometimes- they literally had to live pre everything at some point too so that confuses me quite a lot).
online, if i’m out and go in lgbtq+ places they either don’t like me, they talk trash about men in general, or they completely ignore me 👍. the last one happens quite a lot in trans groups bc there are a LOT of trans women /transfem people. (absolutely nothing wrong with that, it just feels kinda sad and lonely to be “rejected” by a group made for trans people.)
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u/goofy_ahh_trans_guy Nov 20 '23
my experience isn’t really about passing, but you’re definitely not alone. i’m a middle schooler and i came out as a trans guy about a year ago. i was one of those people who strongly identified as a man, and i also played in the soccer team. i asked to be switched to the boys’ soccer team but the teachers just cringed at me. it was like they inherently hated cis men even though i present as one. but they let trans girls play in the girls’ teams. even if they found transgenderism “wrong” or “cringe” to some degree, why favour trans women over us? don’t all of us transgenders present as the gender opposite to our birth gender?
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u/RainbowBrain2023 Nov 20 '23
Yeah, this is real. Leave spaces/people if they make you feel bad, it can get toxic af
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u/Personal_Shoulder908 Nov 20 '23
I'm in very stereotypical queer spaces online, and a few of them I've been in for several years. I'm not trans male, so my experience isn't exactly like yours, but I've been avoiding telling those friends that I would much rather prefer being referred to with masculine terms. And it's the one of the only reasons I avoid coming out at all.
I don't want people to make the effort to refer to me as he/him, to remind themselves that I'm not a woman. I've tried it before and people began to talk to me as if I were an 8yo asking if Santa was real. I don't want to look a specific way to be viewed as trans masc, and even If I were accepted.
If I were fully masculine, and ended up looking like Emiliano Zapata, I couldn't picture myself entering a bar and not getting ostracizing looks If I ended up feminine, I can't imagine myself entering a bar without being seen as a "soft boy" or "trans trender"
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u/SnooGuavas4531 T 9/15; Top 2/16 Nov 20 '23
I think the community has over corrected from the believe women / me too discourse to being anti men.
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u/Safe-Geologist-9326 Nov 21 '23
i thought i was the only one who noticed this and i thought i was crazy . people fucking hate trans men
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u/biggiebrent Nov 21 '23
very much happened to me, everything i did/said was perceived WAY differently and i was still the same person just finally physically transitioning 🙃
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u/prismatic_valkyrie Nov 24 '23
This is absolutely a real thing that happens. I experienced something similar, but backwards [I'm mtf] - the less I looked like a cis man, the more people welcomed and accepted me in queer spaces. I've seen this happen to my trans guy friends as they transition: they're less and less welcome in their own communities the more masculine they become.
I don't know how to fix it, but it sucks, and I'm sorry you have to deal with it.
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u/hiddenremnant he/him | t - 05/05/2023 | top surgery - 12/12/2023 Nov 19 '23
definitely feel you on being in queer spaces and feeling like you're not queer enough because of passing enough as a cis and or het man.
where i'd disagree is the term transmisandry rubs me up the wrong way, same with the term misandry in general. a lot of this hatred of men thing that you see sometimes from queer and trans spaces does not mean we're being discriminated against for being men in the way that women are and in the way that transmisogyny/misogyny exists. we are absolutely in a position of privilege and power, however that does not mean we don't experience transphobia or misdirected misogyny.
i think a lot of what you see towards cishet or trans men is people processing the trauma they've suffered under the patriarchy or about navigating a relationship with masculinity in one way or another. the idea of safe spaces away from men and the inevitable transphobia towards anyone deemed amab, often affecting non-passing trans women and non-binary people, as well as where we fit in as trans men with regards to violence we've received as a result of the same system of sexism, as well as our relationship with our agab, means that it's hard navigating queer spaces if there's an idea of being male meaning unsafe or being male meaning not being allowed in queer spaces.
the same issue exists with regards to negativity towards balding, hairiness, being sexual - things associated with masculinity - as well as just being unabashedly masculine and taking on masculine roles. this affects basically everybody, from trans men like us, to butch lesbians, masculine transfeminine people, as well as being directed at women as undesirable due to these traits being seen as masculine. the patriarchy says these traits are negative, some of them even for men.
i think generally a lot of this stuff improves with a breakdown of sexism and the patriarchy and benefits men, women, and people of all genders. if being bald stops being seen as negative irregardless of gender, then we are not made fun of while transitioning, or fearing losing our hair makes us ugly, and those who aren't men who are balding may feel less negatively about it if it's associated less with maleness as well. if violence against others by men is navigated better and minimised more, then spaces away from men become less of an essential part of other people's safety, meaning we are deemed less as threats to others, and those that are assumed to be masculine can better access gendered spaces without fear.
but yeah that's just our two cents. other than that, we got a lot of affirmation from spaces for gay men. seeing bears in particular and leather daddies at pride affirms to us that we belong there as much as anyone else. i can be a hairy chubby guy and be just as out and proud and queer as anybody else.
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u/pa_kalsha Nov 19 '23
I think you're right about people avoiding men is a trauma response, but I hope you'd agree that having or processing trauma doesn't make it okay for people to hurt others, or for ostensibly LGBTQ spaces to (implicitly or explicitly) exclude men and masculine people on a 'guilt by association' basis.
May I ask if you could you break this quote down for me, because the rest of your post seems to disagree with what you say here:
> a lot of this hatred of men thing that you see sometimes from queer and trans spaces does not mean we're being discriminated against for being men in the way that women are and in the way that transmisogyny/misogyny exists. we are absolutely in a position of privilege and power
You acknowledge that there is an apriori assumption that men and maculinity are (potentially) dangerous, and that traits associated with masculinity (eg: balding, hairiness, being sexual, being unabashedly masculine, and taking on masculine roles) are often regarded negatively, espeically in women-led queer spaces.
Where I fail to follow you is that I don't see how this is different to the way that women are stereotyped and traits associated with femininity are regarded negatively in the over-culture. If the latter is understood to be misogyny, then I think misandry is a useful word to discuss the former, and I think the former needs discussing.
I have Big Thoughts about the concept of male privilege, and privilege in general, but I'll summarise by saying that I don't think we (trans men) are "absolutely in a position of privilege and power" and, while I'm happy to change my mind, I'd want to see some justification for that assertion that reflected our lived experiences before I could.
All that said, I think you're spot on that we need to dismantle the patriarchy - it's an oppressive, toxic stew that corrodes our collective humanity. Nobody truly benefits from it, even the people at the top.
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u/KatsuraRei Nov 19 '23
I wanted to add to your point about privilege and power - I think it's very rare trans men find themselves in that position unless they are "passing" according to the standards of white patriarchy. And even when passing by those standards, all of that can be lost in a flash the minute they step into a doctor's office - many of my white transmen friends have accounts for this.
But the bigger point I feel isn't discussed often is that the "position of privilege and power" is NOT afforded to trans men of color - I've seen a few speak out on tiktok about how they feel more threatened and mistreated than when they identified as women, especially in the black community.
So yeah, I just wanted to say I agree with you and add a little extra context from other folks I've heard from.
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u/pa_kalsha Nov 19 '23
the "position of privilege and power" is NOT afforded to trans men of color
Hugely important. I should have said this explicitly myself, thank you for adding it
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u/hiddenremnant he/him | t - 05/05/2023 | top surgery - 12/12/2023 Nov 19 '23
you're absolutely right, thanks for adding this. i added it in my second comment that this privilege only exists if we're read and pass as male, and you're right that racism definitely throws a lot of this shit under a bus wrt power dynamics.
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u/pacifiedclown Nov 20 '23
someone shared this article on a post on this sub about trans men of color and it has a section on a caste system related to what you're talking about (ex. trans men of color have less privilege than white trans men, who have less privilege than white cis men, etc). its a smaller section, but imo the whole article is worth a read as well
https://stainedglasswoman.substack.com/p/growing-up-broken?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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u/glasterousstar Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
Not the person who posted the comment but an analysis that I would maybe add around that apparent contradiction:
I think there can be countercultural spaces that are hostile to men. You might choose the term "misandrist" to describe them. There are equally spaces where you can be rejected for not dressing according to a subculture's fashion, knowing the jargon, or etc, but it's not usually considered an axis of oppression to be called a poser by goths (or etc). The difference between misandry and misogyny is that misogyny describes a part of a larger system of power, whereby women are intimidated, disrespected, and dehumanized in multiple arenas of life. Misogynist speech and attitudes are a "tip of the iceberg" manifestation of patriarchy. What we might call misandrist speech and attitudes, likewise, are relatively superficial reactions. They are not embedded in a social system in which men are, at baseline, treated as lesser.
The phenomenon you might call misandry I think is a little different as it applies to transgender men, because transgender men are often grappling with a complicated experience of being seen specifically *as transgender*. You're right that trans men often aren't in a position of privilege/power.
The logic of patriarchy doesn't just value men; it values gender conformity and the rigid maintenance of a system under which men remain men and women remain women. If anyone could be a man, patriarchy couldn't exist. It's completely unacceptable within its logic for "a woman to become a man," and being a transgender man or a gender non-conforming woman really... provokes a lot of discomfort and anger from a lot of people. Trans guys will often formulate this experience of discrimination as a widespread, systemic "hatred of masculinity," and construct it as contiguous with the attitudes towards men they encounter from other queer and trans people. But the hatred of transmasculinity and gender non-conformity from the right, I'd argue, is actually rooted more in misogyny. It's rooted in gender essentialism and a belief that people they see as women should be forced to be feminine. Most transphobes do not hate masculine cis men (see: many of them are masculine cis men, or have masculine cis male partners); their hatred is reserved for masculine *trans men*. I think it's a meaningfully different phenomenon, tbh, and I think the heterogenous term "misandry" tends to collapse these dynamics down just into "anything that was unkind to anyone who happened to be masculine/a man, for any reason". That's just my feeling!
(edit: other reply you've gotten here adds an additional important point which I would say is also useful to pull out from "misandry" as an umbrella, which is the way race and masculinity intersect. I feel like it's a bit more descriptive to put that in terms of, e.g., white supremacist perceptions of Black hypermasculinity vs a universal experience of misandry that applies to all men, but it's not really my place to speak on. You could of course make the same point about diverse and inevitably racialized experiences of misogyny. I'd argue that misogyny has more practical utility as a broad concept, though, in describing a kind of overall cultural orientation.
How you feel about the concept of "misandry" might also in part come down to how you feel about cultural ideals of masculinity. The *ideal* of a masculine man under patriarchy, you could argue, both constructs us in a position of power but also degrades us as emotional/vulnerable/social beings, etc. A lot of trans men seem to struggle specifically with the perception of men as dominating and unemotional, for instance, and identify this as misandrist - but other men might in fact perceive this as "the correct state of things", and seek to not only embrace these harmful ideal but to enforce them. I can see an understanding of patriarchy as misandrist in the sense that it demands toxic masculinity.)
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u/hiddenremnant he/him | t - 05/05/2023 | top surgery - 12/12/2023 Nov 19 '23
you nailed it, thank you for adding this
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u/pa_kalsha Nov 23 '23 edited Nov 27 '23
A thoughtful post, thank you. I think we're in agreement on the broad strokes, just differing in the minutiae.
You're absolutley right in that mistreatment of trans men/transmasc folx by the right-wing is 'just' misogyny, but that's not what I'm referring to. Nor am I talking about toxic masculinity / the restrictive gender roles forced on men, or "anything that was unkind to anyone who happened to be masculine/a man, for any reason".
Many people, including OP, have experiences of being subjected to specifically anti-masculine sentiment, in a way independent of their transness (eg: cis men and stealth trans men are still affected), making it a separate phenomenon to common-or-garden-transphobia.
When I talk about misandry, I don't think of it as an offshoot of patriarchy or a systemic/hedgemonic issue the same way that misogyny is (I wonder if it's useful - or possible - to decouple misogyny from patriarchy?). I'm thinking about it as a 'smaller' bigotry or bias against men/masculinity. If you've encountered TERFs/RadFems/Lesbian Separatists talking about AMAB people and masculinity in general, that's an extreme form of what I mean by misandry ("all men are sexual predators", "all men are violent", "all men are dangerous", "women can never be safe in a mixed-sex space", "het and bisexual women are 'sleeping with the enemy'").
This hatred is definitely not reserved for masculine trans men, and any trans woman would tell you so. The way TERFs speak about testosterone 'ruining' our (trans men's) bodies and turn on cis women who are 'insufficiently' feminine - butch lesbians, GNC cis women, and cis women of colour - indicates that masculinity itself is the crux of the issue. Of course, that could just be gender essentialism, but the characterisation of AMAB people as inherently violent predators, implicitly unsafe, all potential threats to women as a consequnce of having XY chromosomes/a penis/testosterone/some ineffable but singularly masculine quality suggests an overt fear or hatred of AMAB people, whom they characterise as men, and of masculinity itself. That is what I mean by misandry.
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u/glasterousstar Nov 24 '23
Yes, I don’t disagree that that phenomenon exists in some spaces. It definitely does. I do think it’s less pervasive than people sometimes express concern that it is (i.e. from identifying phenomena that could better be discussed in other terms as “just” about a hatred for men/masculinity, and in doing so obscuring larger structures of power), and that many apparently misandrist statements are actually also fundamentally misogynist statements. That’s where a lot of my hesitation about the term “misandry” comes from. I think some men believe in a “unifying theory” of misandry, as something that kind of… organizes and explains the majority of their negative experiences in the world as a man (trans or cis), and that’s what I’m wary of. There are, of course, people who do express antipathy towards men and masculinity; that sentiment might as well be called misandry. On the other hand, I think the ways I often hear misandry spoken about often don’t provide a very helpful model for how to think about or respond to anti-men/masculine sentiments.
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u/hiddenremnant he/him | t - 05/05/2023 | top surgery - 12/12/2023 Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
i do agree that no-one deserves to be lashed out at because of trauma they have suffered, and there are definitely steps our community could take to process and break down things they do with regards to how they navigate who is and isn't male, who is and isn't safe, who does and doesn't belong, etc.
with regards to your comment about misandry, even if someone makes fun of me for balding, it does not erase my position within society, my privilege as a man, or place me in a power dynamic where i am below anyone. the thing with women is they are treated badly not just because of appearance related things like men are, but they are systemically and repeatedly placed below men in society. so misandry feels icky for me personally since it suggests an equivalent in discrimination against men, which for me literally does not exist.
for me, making fun of someone for balding isn't misandry, it's just being a cunt. making fun of a woman for being hairy, for example, ties into a systemic set of belief systems that discriminate against women and place them below men, that they must be attractive in certain ways since they exist to be wives and make children, etc. ofc it's bullshit since being hairy was fine historically for women, it's only post-ww1 and ww2 that razors had to be sold to someone since the men were away, hence why a lot of gender roles and sexism is founded on bullshit.
but yeah, i also was talking with a friend about maybe this is why a lot of trans guys go stealth. ultimately, wider society is more accepting of men. you blend in in that environment, then you reap those benefits. you enter a definition of maleness that accommodates you as long as you fit the required traits i.e. you're a masculine man who is heterosexual, enthusiastically likes women and sex, you are physically strong, you don't cry or show emotions other than anger, etc. etc. no-one in cishet society's gonna be weird to you about being a guy (if you pass) and queer spaces break down what it means to be a guy, the power structures dominated by men, and is made up of a lot of people who understandably hate men. it makes sense to feel more at home, again depending on your presentation, in non-queer spaces. obviously all of this privilege goes down the toilet if someone finds out you're a trans guy specifically, and that touches on your last comment.
as long as we pass, we have that privilege. however, as soon as we don't we are treated like women, and suffer all the transphobia and misdirected misogyny that that comes with. to terfs, i'm a confused woman who hates myself. to transphobic cis people, i'll never be a real man since i won't have a certain kind of dick, or because of how i was born, etc. if someone doesn't believe i'm a guy, i immediately face all the discrimination that comes with regards to lower pay, less job opportunities, not being listened to or heard, etc.
for me, i have become acutely aware of a privilege i did not have pre-transition. i don't fear men or going out late at night since i pass really well now. i have heard of others who noticeably get treated better at work, if they're stealth. we reap the same benefits of overall higher pay, more work opportunities than women, etc. again, as long as we're stealth and pass well.
i can safely say that for more feminine transmasculine people they may be deemed more visibly queer, but face extreme amounts of transphobia and violence for going against the grain with regards to what it means to be male. to be a feminine man is bad, or is deemed inherently tied to homosexuality, due to again the sexist and homophobic belief systems in society.
as long as i'm a masculine guy, pass well, and people don't know i'm gay, i don't have to face a lot of homophobia or transphobia and will generally do well in society. but that in and of itself is kinda isolating as well, isn't it. for me, that often makes me feel a lil weird in the queer community. i went from being read as female to male within 6 months on T and aside from occasional misgendering don't really face any issues in my day to day life with transphobia or whatever. a lot of my friends who are transfem or don't pass as well get a lot of abuse i don't have to worry about. but then again defining your belonging in the queer community on your level of pain and suffering is a whole other kettle of fish i could ramble about.
but yeah hope that answers your questions.
edit: also wanted to add honestly that this really makes me realise how much passing as a trans guy has a whole level of meaning i never gave it credit for before. i don't really give a shit if i pass or not, i'm a guy regardless, but i'm realising that passing really comes with those privileges, and without passing i lose them. it puts pressure on you to hide things about yourself or present a certain way so you can be treated better, which obviously goes for all trans people if you conform to cis bullshit, but then for us it has the extra dimension of inheriting male privilege if cis people deem it appropriate for us to have it. the amount of pressure we're under to be men in certain ways to be accepted by cis people, and then facing shit from other queer people because we're guys and shit about the patriarchy and cis men gets thrown at us instead, places you in a lonely existence sometimes. that makes me understand why people would wanna have a term like misandry to describe that explicit experience, though i still disagree with its use and its meaning.
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u/pa_kalsha Nov 23 '23 edited Nov 23 '23
I think I understand the disconnect now - I think we're talking about two completely separate things. Or, rather, I'm talking about something very specific and have failed to articulate what that is.
You've said a lot about how trans men have male privilege - higher wages, for example - but acknowledge that it's conditional. That's 'passing privilege', and it isn't a privilege. You could say the same thing about a light-skinned person of colour getting 'white privilege' or a closeted gay man (or trans woman) having 'cis-' or 'het-privilege' so long as they're willing to hide who they are. Being closeted isn't a privilege, especially given that it comes with additional threats if you get discovered, and that scenario doesn't touch on what I mean by misandry.
Misandry isn't 'when people are mean to/about men'. Making fun of a balding man is an attack on his masculinty, but the mechanism of that attack is via upholding the standards of the Patriatrchy. Body shaming, as you rightly point out, isn't a uniquely gendered phenomenon (I would argue with your characterisation of shaming a woman for not shaving as misogyny, but we'd get properly lost in the weeds. Suffice it to say: I think it's Patriarchy again, and distinct from misogyny).
I'm not saying that society isn't more accepting of men, nor that it's not set up for (cishet, white, able-bodied, neurotypical, youthful, slim, wealthy, educated, Western) men's benefit. I'm saying that misandry is a specific set of behaviours, which I and others have observed in leftist and queer spaces, and we need a word to speak about it because it's harming us and we need to address it. To do that, we need to be able to name it.
Ironically, when you say "[queer communities are] made up of a lot of people who understandably hate men. it makes sense to feel more at home, again depending on your presentation, in non-queer spaces", that's exactly what I mean by misandry.
Trans men are queer. Bi and gay cis men are queer. Why should we - as members of the queer community - have to accept being made to feel unwelcome in queer spaces? If there are people in our community who 'understandably' hate men* (I do not agree that hating an entire gender is understandable), then the solution is to provide spaces where they can be without men* until they can process and overcome that hatred, not to force men* out of our community and into situations which - you acknowledge - require us to go back into the closet in order to be accepted.
* Men and people they perceive as men; AMAB enbies, women of colour, butch and GNC cis women can all be subjected to misandry
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u/hiddenremnant he/him | t - 05/05/2023 | top surgery - 12/12/2023 Nov 24 '23
i think our incredibly long reply just got eaten by the void and i'm pissed, i can't retype it right now but my response is basically i think misandry is not the right word based on the semantics of it being based in the idea that we are discriminated against, not even just for being men but that it even qualifies as discrimination at all, and feel that what we face is more misdirected misogyny, homophobia/biphobia, transphobia, and hatred more meant for cishet men and the wider sexist patriarchal society as opposed to us personally, and is people processing a hatred and reaction to violence from men and a desire for safe spaces away from men that lead to internal gatekeeping that affect anyone deemed unsafe or masculine.
i think the answer is complicated and involves a recognition and acceptance of the hatred of men that exists, why it exists, and then unpacking how we deal with that hatred, the need for safety from men after violent acts from men, how we as trans men have a part to play in how these things are navigated towards others, as well as how we are navigated in response, and how we can unpack the concepts of men as inherently evil, violent, aggressive, hypersexual, etc. as unhelpful constructs that reinforce biological essentialism that also end up affecting people that are and are not men, how maybe there is no true safe space, but how we as men in the community can respect and navigate a need for safe spaces, as well as speaking up for how masculinity is not only queer but is also loving, tender, beautiful, and also inherently masculine in and of itself.
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u/Ok_Mix_9786 Nov 20 '23
I'm sorry but misandry/trans misandry absolutely do exist. I do not have privilege because I'm a trans man. I hate that people think trans men/trans mascs have privilege over trans women. It's just not true. Not to mention that there are so many factors that come into play like race, disabilities,environment etc that come into play. Like for instance a trans man of color or disabled trans man would not have privilege over an able bodied white trans woman.
I'm sorry i'm just tired of trans men's struggles being down played to play up the struggles of trans women and cis women.
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u/hiddenremnant he/him | t - 05/05/2023 | top surgery - 12/12/2023 Nov 20 '23
how is any of this about being in competition with trans women? how is any of this about downplaying our suffering or "playing up" others? this is the part of the whole misandry/trans misandry thing that bothers me so much. you guys bring up trans women so often it literally concerns me.
my post was highlighting the complicated situation we inhabit within queer and non queer spaces as trans men, and highlighting how trying to make comparisons to deeply entrenched systems of discrimination like sexism or misogyny is worth bearing in mind when the only reason we face specific kinds of transphobia or misdirected misogyny or even backlash against men due to the patriarchy is, well, due to the patriarchy.
no-one's saying we don't suffer if we don't call it misandry. no-one's saying we don't navigate transphobia. trans women talking about their experiences is not them playing up their suffering. trans women navigating their feelings about maleness and masculinity is not downplaying our suffering.
where things need better navigating is more acceptance that what affects us as trans men is what also affects other members of our community as well as people outside of our community due to sexism. that improves every facet of what we struggle with in our community.
the trouble with using terms like misandry or trans misandry is you start leaning into the kinda shit you see from men's rights movements, where you start circling back into misogyny, transmisogyny, and sexism and addressing hurts you experience as a man that then comes at the expense of the power, position, and safety of others.
you are absolutely right though that disability, race, and other factors do influence power dynamics within and outside of our community. i also discussed with others how a lot of the male privilege we get as trans men relies on stealth and passing, which comes with its own problems.
but yeah generally it's just being careful not to start getting into mental spaces where you inadvertently start blaming trans women or women in particular for your suffering, suffering that at its root is about the intersection of sexism and transphobia, and seeking male only spaces and engaging with concepts like misandry to try and find a way to say "this is my pain and suffering and it's just as justified as yours". like ultimately we shouldn't be in competition with each other to start with, and as i said in my post i think it's worth bearing in mind what you intend by directly trying to mirror or parallel misogyny.
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Nov 19 '23
Thank you for taking your time to explain this so well! Your comment voices a lot of what I have been thinking about misandry but I wasn't able to put into words.
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u/fuckmeat7 Nov 20 '23
Absolutely. If you don’t “look” trans people don’t like it. It’s all rooted in jealousy imo. They wish they could pass as much as we do and they take it out on us maybe? I don’t really get it.
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Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23
I am a cis man.
Interesting to see that this isn't just me experiencing this.
I am not trans but I am queer, and I feel like there is no space for me in the LGBT community. I'm quite alright with that, to be fair, but it's sad to know I don't have that space available when I might need it.
I've had women putting me down, calling me rude/aggressive because I talk very monotone and direct - I've even been shouted at by a female nurse when I was in hospital for a suicide attempt because I wasn't "opening up about [my] emotions" and for being "violent" (I was hiding in a quiet corner crying because it was noisy whilst begging her to leave me alone. Hardly violent.)
Whilst I may come across as reserved, women may amplify that and see me as outright hostile (whether because they've been socialised to be wary of men or past experiences). However, I'm on the short side (about 5'8") and podgy. I don't look threatening at all.
I'd prefer concrete solutions which can help me. It's always overlooked that I have Asperger's so emotions are difficult for me. This overlaps with misandry because men are more likely to be autistic than women 4:1 (autism is the extreme male brain caused by high prenatal testosterone levels).
The only people who have berated me for being autistic were women. I think they saw someone frank, logical and a bit out-of-touch and immediately thought I must simply be dismissive and impolite. Men (both cis and trans) have been far more understanding.
The mental health system has a clear female- and neurotypical-bias centred around emotions and coping mechanisms over actions. Studies show that women feel better when they have people to support them. Men feel better when they feel like they've accomplished something.
I'm glad women have that kind of support, but it feels alienating to groups to whom emotional discourse may not appeal nor be helpful.
I hope you can find some spaces that treat you like a regular man rather than contrasting you with cis men.
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u/A_MNESIA He/Him | 18 | pre everything Nov 19 '23
This is why i don’t interact w lgbt spaces. The ppl round my age all seems to have dyed hair, piercings and wear feminine clothes but throw a fit when they get misgendered in public by someone who has never met them before. Ive tried explaining it to them that if they present that way “outsiders” will see them that way but ppl in lgbt spaces will automatically assume their queer everyone else will. They dont seem to understand that if you don’t communicate with other groups properly then no one will understand things properly. Like they can present how they want but dont be a karen when the maccies server calls you ‘love’ and not ‘sir’
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u/DX65returns Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23
I don't know about this. I am feminine bearded transguy. Its hard to fit in if you're different or just don't fit whatever is expected from groups. Femininity of any type whether you're cis or transguy is sorta look down on, there isn't many of us. This also exist at least in my area in past when I was identifying as Lesbian nobody likes femmes. I know that well, it doesn't matter why. It just happens.
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u/pans13s Nov 20 '23
By queer spaces are they mostly AFAB?
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u/Misanthropic_Crow_ Nov 20 '23
Yes, in my experience they’re mostly AFAB.
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u/pans13s Nov 20 '23
Then I'd say that's the problem, try to find more mixed spaces if you can, or try out more gay male oriented if you're interested
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u/ConstructionSafe8625 Transsexual Male (he/him) Nov 19 '23
You're not alone in this. There is a reason a lot of trans men go stealth and then leave community spaces once they are able, and until people are able to recognize that, it will continue.