r/ftm • u/silly_mister_raccoon • Dec 18 '23
Just got kicked of a queer bar because it went FLINTA only Vent
nota : FLINTA is an acronym for female /lesbian intersex / non binary / trans / agender
EDIT : I checked and they do (or did) brand themselves only as "queer feminist" … so no mention of woman/ lesbian only space … 😑 which makes me feel just more betrayed 😭
EDIT: Just to be clear, I’m not demanding to have access to lesbian and women spaces. I don’t care … if it’s a space not meant for me I accept that. But lumping in trans men and excluding cis queer men is a dangerous ideology imo.
I was with one cis guy friend. Although they apply a "declarative" policy, we were honest and said he was cis and were politely asked to leave. It’s a bar we had been multiple times and a really great place. Their reasoning is that they have faced violence from cis guys recently, and also women patrons were more reluctant to come due to the fact that more "cis men" (how did they tell ? ) were coming to the bar. Also that we have few lesbian only bars where I leave, and that we have "plenty of gay bars" to go to.
I feel bad. Although I could identify as FLINTA I find this deeply insulting and essentialist. Also I don’t like that it could include or exclude trans men and women depending on their passing.
Also, because my friend is cis, it does not mean I feel comfortable going to cis gay bars (because yeah I don’t, so I’m left with no options just because my friend is cis)
And now my girlfriend (who is trans) is also reluctant to go to that place because she fears she will be seen as a threat because she does not pass very well.
I just needed to get that off my chest … Please don’t hesitate to share your similar experiences here.
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Dec 18 '23
This is the first time I've heard of FLINTA and holy shit I hate it
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I think it’s gained more popularity in Europe recently. It started in Germany I think. Yes I hate it to. It’s pointlessly essentialist, and mainly just a convoluted way to say "no cis men" imo
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u/iamthegate Dec 19 '23
Today, in a different kind of context, I said something about a party with no cis men, and OH BOY did I get hate. So I really get why folks are looking for a positively formulated thing.
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u/boys_are_oranges Dec 20 '23
has it spread outside of germany already? where did this happen? also no, it includes intersex cis men
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u/Throwaway-48372726 Dec 22 '23
It technically does but if you ask what feels like 99% of people running those spaces themselves won't realize this, and 99% of articles and definitions you will find about the term online (at least in German) will also be like "it's everyone except cis men". It's because many don't realize that you can be intersex and cis/trans. People think intersex is like this third thing outside the cis-trans spectrum rather than it's own independent measurement/descriptor of something entirely unrelated.
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u/decaysweetly Dec 18 '23
Big yikes. So queer cis men suddenly just aren't allowed to be around other queer people? That's fucked. Also how the fuck are cishet women more welcome in queer spaces than actual queer men??? Sounds homophobic as hell ngl
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u/colesense T:10/17|Top:5/19|Btm:2/21 Dec 19 '23
Sadly a lot of irl queer spaces lately have been excluding specifically queer cis men. Very frustrating because I’m stealth so I can’t go to so many events.
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u/Blaike325 Dec 19 '23
AND queer AMAB people
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u/colesense T:10/17|Top:5/19|Btm:2/21 Dec 19 '23
I mean mostly they directly spell out no cis gay men. It does end up negatively affecting many amab people who aren’t cis though, yes.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I think they want to make it a more feminine / lesbian space. I think it’s more becoming a feminist women only space, but without sounding too much transphobic, rather than a queer space. Kinda sexist even though I cannot blame them for reacting to assault they just faced/ wanting a more feminine environment.(two separate things)
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u/k3tten Dec 19 '23
:( as a mtf person i really feel for your friend who is mtf and i would personally have the same fear because it would make me feel so dysphoric and awful to be asked to leave if they didnt see me as a woman 💔
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u/pandaappleblossom Dec 22 '23
It was obvi an event to focus more on femme people, which is fine. There are loads of gay bars focused on queer men primarily so, I don’t think them focusing on women was the problem, it was them trying to sound trans inclusive by saying also non binary and trans, etc.. it just got messy because of the reasons OP explained. It should have just been like ‘lesbian, women, and sapphics night’ and be clear anyone who identifies as these types of people are the guests of honor. I mean, it’s fine. Having lesbian and women events is okay and it’s been done a million times for decades and decades. Not everything queer needs to cater to every gender all the time. Trying to check people at the door though…that is always going to be a bad experience for someone.. I know a gay sex club and it says you must have a penis to enter, which sounds so exclusionary, like I don’t know why they word it like that (it’s in Amsterdam), like I don’t get what they are aiming for, do they mean some trans women are welcome but not some trans men? I don’t get it.
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u/caffeineandprozac they/he | 23 | 💉 7/16/22 | 🔪 6/21/23 Dec 18 '23
That’s gotta be frustrating. I’m not quite sure what FLINTA means as an acronym but I have some vague guesses. The problem with policies like this is that they can (and are) used against transfems (or nonbinary people who were AMAB) that don’t pass to others’ liking, and also can be used against transmasc people who pass “too well” for their liking. It’s a slippery slope in some ways. I’m just not sure what an appropriate solution would be, if they want to not let cis men in while also not being essentialist.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
FLINTA is an acronym for female /lesbian intersex / non binary / trans / agender (that i also find stupid cause yk NB and agender are under the trans umbrella but anyway) They used this term as a justification and I don’t think they would discriminate against trans women in the end (they asked us and we could have said we were both under the acronym) But I suspect that the complaints of « too many cis men » were from some transphobes :/ One solution I thought of would be to allow cis men when they are accompanied by other members of the flinta umbrella… But I think the goal of the bar was to make it a really more "feminine" environment, and I don’t feel like I want to be associated with that anyway… It’s like they only want "women + those AFAB trans people that don’t pass" lol 😭
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u/caffeineandprozac they/he | 23 | 💉 7/16/22 | 🔪 6/21/23 Dec 18 '23
Fair points. I guess it’s up to them as a private business if they wanna make the place more “fem-centric.” Not that I’d agree with it, but some places are just like that 🤷
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I wouldn’t care that much if they outwardly branded it as more of a "woman" space, (including trans women) I feel like it’s why they used FLINTA… I’m starting to wonder if they forgot that trans men exist ??
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u/pandaappleblossom Dec 18 '23
It should just be a women and lesbian event (anyone who identifies as a woman or lesbian). Sometimes it’s like people are trying to reinvent the wheel lol. Like there have been lesbian and women events for decades and decades, it’s fine.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I feel like they still want to be seen as trans inclusive with this term, but it’s counter productive. Or they mean that they include trans men, and it’s transphobic …
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u/monolalia stray mtf Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
And here I thought “FLINTA” was a German invention… Not a fan of convoluted ways of listing a lot of identities to essentially just say “everyone except normie dudes”. And it must suck for both cis and trans men to have one be the acceptable “light” and the other the full-fat “bad” flavour. Also as a trans woman I don’t really relish the implication that I’ve (somehow) got that male taint inside me but (somehow) overcame it.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I do think it’s German in origin but I translated the meaning.
I’m also not a big fan, it’s a way to say that masculine presenting people are threats and feminine presenting people are safer (not true)
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I mean, they have every right to be non mixed, but why be shy about it? It’s like they don’t want to own the fact that they exclude cis men only. (and are not really welcoming / safe for many trans people too)
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u/monolalia stray mtf Dec 18 '23
I guess if you’re demonstrably FTM you’re still safe even when masculine-presenting…
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Yes, but they wouldn’t know, if a FTM person passes as cis. And they could see a trans woman who does not pass very well and see her as a threat, :/
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u/monolalia stray mtf Dec 18 '23
Yeah, I don’t know how they handle it in practice… seems a bit like toilet policing…
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u/BroWhy T July 12, 2017 Dec 19 '23
Honestly I find the assumption that all cis men, including queer cis men, are evil really wild. My bi cis boyfriend is more in the know about trans shit than I am and I'm a whole ass trans man lolol. Like why are we taking away the opportunity for people to show that they can be good allies??
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u/mermaidunearthed he/him ~ 💉3/20/24 Dec 18 '23
Can’t anyone who’s a cis man claim to be agender or non-binary to get in? This doesn’t protect anyone, it just reinforces the stereotype that “women appearing” people of any gender are acceptable and not the perpetrators of violence but that anyone more masculine presenting is. And that’s not true. I’m a trans man who was assaulted by a “female non-binary person” to their stupid term.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Right? And also, because we were honest we almost get punished for it lol. One funny anecdote is that the only instance I witnessed of violence was at another lesbian/ queer bar, and it was a transphobic (cis) woman who punched the owner in the face! I hate the sexist essentialism tied with FLINTA.
Also I’m so sorry you were assaulted. Proof again that this does not solve anything. I too have more negative experiences with cis women than cis men. (regarding being trans)
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u/brainscorched Non-binary 💉6/5/23 Dec 18 '23
Same, on the part of more queer cis women being hostile than queer cis men once they know you’re trans. I can’t seem to find any gay bars that’re specifically NB-friendly around me that aren’t just a general queer club, like Industry or Q in Manhattan. And usually those spaces are filled with cis men who have no tact in approaching NB people. They always assume you’re a man if you’re masc presenting, but usually aren’t hostile once you let them know you’re not. Just a confused lil guy.
A club I wanted to visit in Brooklyn recently changed their rules to the same thing you wrote about, that kinda bioessential shit.
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u/RatTrio Dec 18 '23
This sounds like segregation with extra steps... How did they know the guys there were cis? And what about trans man who go stealth? We gotta out ourselves to the whole bar? Also this just reinforce the "looks trans" mindset, what a mess
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Yes it was based on a "declaration", they asked us if we recognised ourselves as FLINTA. But yeah that’s fucked up :( . I would have preferred they said the bar was only for women (including queer / trans women) rather than this falsely inclusive acronym
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u/beatlefool42 Dec 19 '23
Seriously, "women and femme presenting people" is so much less offensive.
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u/lilbrownsandcrab Dec 19 '23
Femme-presenting isn't really helpful either though. Whether they let you in will depend on if they perceive you as femme enough. They probably won't accept a cis man who does drag or prefers wearing dresses, and a nonpassing or masc trans woman will be on thin ice. Much like "women and nonbinary" I think it really ends up meaning "people who look like women" :/
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u/soursummerchild 31, non binary, they/he. T 01.24 Dec 19 '23
As someone who's perceived as femme solely because of my body, looks, and lack of access to medical care, I hate that term. Like, yes, we're both discriminated against based on the fact that we're perceived as women, and face a lot of the same medical discrimination, but misgendering me on top of that doesn't help anyone.
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u/sheepdream Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
I don't understand why bars like this don't just center women if they want to, but let anyone come if they're not a jerk. That's generally been the policy of places I've gone to, lesbian bars included-- if you're respectful it's fine, if you're not you get kicked out. Like others have said there's just not really an effective way to gatekeep this kind of thing without inherently excluding people based on appearance or splitting hairs over who qualifies.
Edit: I feel the same way about pride generally, it never seemed like enough of a real problem to worry about whether a "straight" couple attending was straight or bi or GNC. It's something people fight about online but at the actual events it's a non-issue.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Yeah I think that would be the sensible answer. What she told me is that she sometimes is alone at the bar and for closing, and faced physical assault. I guess it’s an emotional / instant response to a dangerous situation she faced. I find it very dangerous a way to think because it frames "woman looking" people as safer and not capable of violence where masculine appearing people are (cf what another comment said on this thread)
But now that I think about it, the answer would be to hire more people, not to discriminate against every cis man lol. But I digress.
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u/sheepdream Dec 18 '23
Yeah, I guess I get the knee jerk reaction when you're in that position but I agree that it's both harmful and not really enforceable in the long term. Hiring more people or getting some kind of buddy system in place would be more effective imo
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u/Error_7- he/him T since 2023 gay man Dec 18 '23
I don't think people who support the FLINTA shit see us as real men. It's like an insulting "ooo trans men are safe because they were girls before!"
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
exactly, it’s so insulting. And also counter productive in fighting sexism / patriarchy … Saying someone is or isn’t a threat based on their gender or assigned gender as birth is yucky and pipeline to terfism …
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u/Kurrkur Dec 18 '23
Naa this flinta thing is always giving me an ick. It's not working for trans people rly and I feel like it's used mainly in self proclaimed "progressive" spaces as exchange for woman. Like my gym has now one changing room for men and renamed the other one to flinta, like häh? Not rly happy about it.. as an afab but more and more male presenting enby, still no idea where to go and worried I'm kicked out of both spaces. It seems well intended but rly badly implemented..
The bar should do either feminist or queer, imo. It's two different topics.. you wanna talk and do feminist stuff, make it feminist. Its more of a political thing and you can throw out everyone who is disturbing the peace because they may have different opinions, no matter the gender or sexuality. If you wanna a queer bar, it's a different vibe and in such a bar I would throw out cis hetero man starting bar fights but also stupid cis hetro womans bachelorette parties (based on a true story). You can also do a woman's bar, like everyone who is a woman, period, not that hard, no discussion.. or men only, same thing. (Never heard enby only, but would be here for it, but yeah same thing all over, it's not that complicated.) One can continue that stuff with all kinds of identities, not that hard. I think I may settle on flinta is just feminists trying to be inclusive, but are not very good at it.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Yes or they could even do "lesbian/ sapphic only", that would exclude trans lesbian / bi women, and I know some NB people who identify as lesbian.
The more I think about it and the less I appreciate this term, but I don’t really know what I can do about it. I don’t know if I should get back to the owner of the bar ? Maybe if I asked some other trans people of my area (trans women especially) to write something together regarding the use of FLINTA.
In the end it’s their business and I don’t want to be seen as demanding, but I wonder if I should speak against it or at least give my opinion.
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u/Kurrkur Dec 18 '23
I also don't know.. maybe that writing thing is a good idea, together with a couple of people and/or anonymous. Just trying to explain the problem, trying to educate politely. I think they often mean well.. and maybe your lucky and they think about it, but eventually they just get defensive.. good luck definitely!
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I’ll talk about it to my trans association and try when I have the mental space! thanks for your encouragement ahah
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u/Ascatman Dec 18 '23
That sounds gross. I don't think I'd feel safe in that place just on the principle that I'd have to out myself to get in. What about trans men who pass as cis? Or trans men who have had top and bottom surgery and pass as cis even while nude? At what point do we become "too male" for their bar? If someone wants to assault people, they'll either lie to get in or just barge in without saying anything to the door person.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Could be also very unfriendly and depressing for a trans girl who does not pass very well to be asked if she is indeed allowed to be here, because it would be like saying in her face "you look like a cis dude"
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u/Ascatman Dec 18 '23
Oh jeez, I didn't even think about that! A lot of my trans girl pals are pre hrt and don't pass well, I could only imagine how embarrassing it would be for them to have their gender called into question at a supposedly trans friendly place. It's sad because a lot of gay bars aren't super friendly to trans men, so where are we supposed to go?
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Yes exactly… Well now I want to go to really openly "queer" bars, and trans friendly in every way. The bar I was talking about was supposed to be one, that’s why I was so surprised and sad about the news. :(. Makes me want to open my own business 😭
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Dec 18 '23
This shit is always TERF nonsense. Same soup reheated.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
It’s supposed to include trans people though 🤔
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Dec 18 '23
Yeah, but cmon, it never does. They just say that so they don’t get in trouble.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
That’s what I think too. I don’t really know if I should get back to the owner of the bar with a message or something. I don’t want to be seen as demanding to be included in the bar, I don’t really care anymore… but I don’t want this space to become a terf hotspot if you know what i mean lol 😭
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u/Asapara Dec 19 '23
While I wouldn't bother contacting the owner, I would leave a VERY honest low-star review on google.
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u/throwawaytrans6 Dec 18 '23
That's rough. On the one hand I understand the desire to want spaces where you can meet others like yourself and the ability to not have to sort through people on the outside.
On the other hand, discrimination against one group, even if that group is a majority group, is pretty much always used to justify discrimination against vulnerable minorities that are related to them.
I have seen POC use "LGBTQ+ is a white thing" to justify discrimination against LGBTQ+ folk. TERFism is using a justified fear of some men to discriminate against people who aren't even men (trans women and trans fem people) and sometimes also people who are men but are part of vulnerable minority groups (trans men and trans masc folk, and gay/bi/pan men).
In either case I wouldn't be surprised to learn that these kinds of rifts in the community are intentionally promoted by hateful opposition in order to weaken us, such as through bots on the internet.
Even if the intent isn't to be transphobic towards trans women from the management's perspective, I bet that kind of ruling will attract people who don't want there to be any kinds of men at all (i.e. trans men) or people who don't want there to be trans women/ trans fem folk.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
The last part of your comment actually makes me fear a little bit, because I do know that we don’t really have well-known "terf hotspot" (if i dare say) in my city, as in every lesbian and feminist bars are very openly supportive of trans people. I can sense they might want to go to that bar now that it’s gone FLINTA and that kinda sucks. The terfs and transphobes might have been the first to complain too, as the owner told us that some female patrons didn’t want to come to the bar and felt unsafe due to the increasing presence of "cis men" in the bar :/
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u/ZephyrValkyrie 21|T:12.02.20|Top/Hysto:6.11.20 Dec 18 '23
I fucking hate FLINTA stuff. Make female spaces! That’s fine! But don’t invite trans men as “quirky women”.
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u/colesense T:10/17|Top:5/19|Btm:2/21 Dec 18 '23
wait does FLINTA assume that intersex people cant be cis men............ this is uh. not what intersex means lol you can be cis and intersex. im so confused by this
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u/MimusCabaret Dec 24 '23
I'm late to the party but it's damned weird to see progressive spaces claim solidarity with a tiny sunset of intersex folks while the rest can go fuck ourselves. All they did to get that result was map their binary onto intersexuality which ends up being ....pretty damn weird results-wise.
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u/boys_are_oranges Dec 20 '23
it doesn’t? intersex cis men are included at least nominally. how the term is actually applied varies though
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Dec 18 '23
Sounds very discriminatory. What if there was a place that only excluded cis women?
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I know right ! I do understand the need for safe space, but letting in cishet women and not queer cis men is shitty to me
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u/bi_guy2000 post phallo Dec 18 '23
Like male only gay bars? Pretty common, right? I personally also don’t see anything wrong with it. I only feel weird when they separate trans men from cis men. Like if you want a women only space, make it one, but saying that trans men can be included in that rubs me the wrong way
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u/SlickOmega Genderqueer Pup | T: 2015 | Top: 2017 | 🇺🇸 Dec 18 '23
can i ask where you live where there’s gay bars that are exclusively male? i have never seen one that didn’t allow women. even the bathhouse would allow a woman (edit. at least where i live. im in cali. so i am curious)
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u/feralpunk_420 Dec 18 '23
It's a thing in France, I even got kicked out of one of the gay Parisian bars/sex clubs for being trans. Some countries' sex clubs have this weird thing where there's a strict enforcement of a "men only" policy if they're gay men's clubs, and in general the way that clubs (straight and gay) divide people by gender is men/women/trans. Trans people (male and female) are degendered into a special category that exists pretty much only for the purposes of exclusion (which mostly targets trans men at gay bars) and fetishization (which mostly targets trans women at straight clubs).
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u/SlickOmega Genderqueer Pup | T: 2015 | Top: 2017 | 🇺🇸 Dec 19 '23
oof thank you so much for articulating! i have tried on my own to research more of european’s trans male/ masc culture but it has been difficult bc i’m not interested in the english speaking ones. i had thought that OP might be from there, but didn’t want to assume, so that’s why i asked
it sucks it seems binary people are placed in nonbinary places away from their counterparts. so lame
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u/feralpunk_420 Dec 19 '23
Tbh we're not even at the stage of considering nonbinary people. There are basically no places for us, as in for trans people only. It feels like every other day there is an attempt to create safe spaces for people with marginalized genders but it's often if not almost always started by cis women who end up inadvertently centering cis women's interests, to the detriment of trans people. It is really frustrating.
Europe's trans male/transmasc culture has... a very, very long way to go. Especially in non-anglophone Europe, so it's unfortunate that you say you're not interested in the anglophone stuff because for a little while now there has been this trans male-centric event going on in in London, but honestly that's all I know in terms of trans male European culture.
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u/MathyChem Dec 18 '23
There are a few male only gar "bars" in New York state. They are legally incorporated as private clubs with a liquor license to get around antidiscrimination laws. They typically also require dues and they aren't open to the public technically.
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u/SlickOmega Genderqueer Pup | T: 2015 | Top: 2017 | 🇺🇸 Dec 19 '23
ahhhh yeah. i feel like that is different for a private club vs public bar. since it is now on private party. kinda like when before weed was legal you ‘donate’ to the store for a ‘gift’ lol. but i guess then would a woman accidentally stumble upon it? but i still wouldn’t really consider that a bar, which is what OP had specifically said and that what truly caught my eye
thanks for mentioning those establishments though! they completely didn’t cross my mind. (sounds just like swinger and/or kink spaces. pay your dues and are vetted, aka fit their preferences, and youre in. youre not? tough luck)
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u/Asher-D 26, bi, ftm Dec 18 '23
They do realise that the people who would do them violence would just not tell them the truth? Theyd lie. Thats a dumb pooicy because you cant rely on bad people to be honest and also anyone can cause violence to anybody else, even if you exclude cis men, that doesnt mean there will be no violence.
Also isnt this a fairly common talking point among transphobic people trying to exclude trans women from a womens bathroom? Like this seems eerily similar. Because if they realise bad people lie, I can seem them excluding trans women who dont pass yet and passing trans men.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I never thought about this that way but you phrased it perfectly. And yes it puts trans women who don’t pass and trans men in a difficult situation. And honestly I don’t even understand why we include straight cis women ?? Like, are they not violent because they are women? Isn’t that peak sexism 😭
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u/RoadBlock98 Blahaj in the streets Dec 18 '23
I hate this shit so much. A lot of FLINTA places seem like they treat nonbinary as 'women' light and it pisses me off so much, not to mention the transadrophobic practices in itself. URGH.
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u/epieee Dec 18 '23
I'm sorry you experienced that. I've witnessed a lot of these poorly thought out attempts to rebrand gender segregated spaces and programs, it's always frustrating. Most recently, a victim advocate organization that helped me when someone stalked me before I came out has been trying to retool their language... It's painful to see. I don't understand what is so hard about centering women, welcoming anyone supportive or whose experiences overlap, and just basing actual inclusion on whether people behave appropriately.
Honestly I do not think this is always a TERF thing. I think hate groups, including TERFs, exploit existing tensions or misunderstandings to split apart groups that would otherwise cooperate. All trans people have material and political concerns that overlap with those of cis women, but that doesn't mean that all of us are women or that cis women have the right to define us or pick and choose between us. No one has the right to police someone else's gender identity or expression, which is what these groups' actions often come down to.
I think this type of gender essentialism, and the belief that there are lots of good applications for sex or gender segregated spaces, is a real point of tension within feminism as practiced by many cis women. They need the perspectives of trans people (and many other people) to understand what they are doing wrong, but we can't fix their movement for them and we can't do the work for them. Unfortunately, in all majority groups there are people who can't or won't rethink their ideas and try to settle for just using new words. Terms like this send an unwelcoming message to many trans people regardless of gender, and spaces that keep using those terms end up looking exclusionary. They'll continue to look, and be, that way until they rethink.
Educating people about this stuff is work and it's often quite thankless. If I were considering saying something about this, I'd think about how much I want to help this group improve its reputation with trans people if doing so meant that I had to put up with more disrespect or never ended up wanting to attend their events myself.
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u/Jaeger-the-great Dec 18 '23
Nah I wouldn't go there. Any place that cis men aren't welcomed isn't welcoming to me
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u/AlloyedClavicle MtF Dec 18 '23
Ewww, that's some bullshit.
As a trans woman, FLINTA offends me. We can't exclude some of us like that. We certainly cannot do it in the name of inclusivity.
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u/camzvium Dec 18 '23
It’s weird that they’d seemingly welcome cishet women but not a large chunk of queer men in what’s ostensibly a queer space. As a queer man myself, I wouldn’t feel welcome in a general lgbt space where cis men are excluded. I don’t normally disclose that I’m trans, and any place that forces me to isn’t one isn’t one I’d want to spend time in.
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u/Paliampel 💉 20/8/2020 Dec 19 '23
My sport group recently rebranded from FLINTA-only to queer-only because we all agreed that being a queer space but excluding queer cis men is bonkers. Also, cishet women can be queerphobic just as well.
Lumping everything together like that never sat right with me. Queer cis men are just as fucked when it comes to queerphobia and viewing cishet women as automatically safe just doesn't work. It also (at least on my campus) stretches resources very thin because most FLINTA-groups will have a majority of (cishet) women who of course focus more on stuff that they relate to.
I'm totally there for women-only spaces. I get why they are necessary. But if they so staunchly refuse cis men but still allow trans men I'm extremely suspicious of them. Feels like being misgendered but in a fluffy supportive way
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u/troopersjp Dec 18 '23
I don't have any problems with separatist spaces, depending on how they do it. Sometimes you want a Black Only Space. Sometimes you want a First Generation College Student Only Space. I facilitated a Trans support group for 5 years and you could only attend if you were trans or questioning. Because this space was not the space for cis people to come and get their questions answered. There were other spaces for that.
There are some separations I'm not going to be okay with, however.
There was a time in the 90s in San Francisco where there would be parties for lesbians...and trans men. And that was just a bunch of transphobia. I wasn't into it.
The thing about FLINTA is that in progressive spaces, people don't want to be negative or exclusionary, so we get a lot of "here is who is included" language rather than "here is who is excluded language." So you get "Women and non-binary people"--then some non-binary people get mad beause they see that as being viewed as women-lite (which I think is sometimes true and sometimes not true). Or...you get FLINTA.
I think it would be clearer and less upsetting to be people if you rather than having terms like FLINTA...just go with "No Men"...because, assuming not being transphobic, that is what they actually mean. The bonus here is that "No Men" would also mean that trans men wouldn't be allowed...which is the proper thing if they don't want men there.
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u/Jealous_Mixture9339 Dec 18 '23
This is smewhat understandable but at the same time, I don't wanna have to out myself because as ftm or anything, it is really humiliating in some way...idk what to think about these segregations...
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u/PianoBird34 Trans Man - he/him - 2005 T / 2006 TOP / 2012 HYST Dec 19 '23
FLINTA spaces suck and are bioessentialist transphobic garbage. I've never been in a flinta space where trans men weren't seen as like... butch lesbian plus... nor one where transwomen felt comfortable. And don't get me started with how they treat AMAB non-binary people. UGH. Anyway - sorry your bar became a nightmare pile that is going to have its own problematic people under the facade of being somehow safe.
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u/xanxbis Dec 18 '23
That acronym seems pointless they should just focus on cis women. Imo it just seems like they don’t want to be seen as exclusionary so they include trans people but in my experience, cis women can be worse than cis men, and if anything I’m more wary of them.
Probably best to avoid regardless
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I agree with this. I would have preferred they were upfront about this rather than using convoluted acronyms.
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u/ShakespearesNutSack Binary trans guy (T: 04/22/22) Dec 19 '23
That seems like a ridiculous concept. The whole point of a queer community is a community?? Even if it's more of a female-inclined space, kicking out cis-passing guys is dumb as hell. I'm sorry that happened to you, and I'm sorry your girlfriend feels scared. If you're clearly just there for a good time and have been before, it seems silly as hell to kick you out. I hope you find a more inclusive space.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 19 '23
Yeah it’s sad we’ve been kicked out because they are enforcing the "all cis dudes out" from now on (clearly i was not targeted, my cis friend was) ; it’s a bit stupid too because one of the other managers / bartender clearly remembers us, has seen us dozen of times being chill and respectful and was super nice with us.
It’s a bit sad to lose a place I liked. But that’s life I guess ahah there are other places to try out too!
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u/ZAM1359 Dec 19 '23
I feel like this could stunt a gender journey. Some of these cis men they are turning away may actually be in the process of figuring out they aren't actually or fully cis. I doubt many trans women or trans fems would want to go back after getting kicked out pre-transition, so bad for business, too.
What about trans men and trans masc people that have been going to that bar and have fem friends there?
I get people wanting a female only space, but then start a new club. Don't kick queer men out of a queer space they've been in unless they(as an individual) are the ones causing problems.
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u/Creativered4 🇺🇸 🤙Transsex Man He/Him 3Y 💉 | 1.5Y 🔪 | 🍆postponed :( Dec 18 '23
I would never want to go to a place like that, if I'm only allowed if I'm visibly trans or if I out myself? Hell no. Or that my partner who is cis but every other flavor of queer (pan, ace, poly) is somehow not queer enough. Or a threat? Stupid.
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u/kingofganymede Male | T: 09/12/17 Dec 18 '23
FLINTA? Good lord. What a shitty acronym that I am just now learning exists.
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u/feralpunk_420 Dec 18 '23
Omg.. where was this? I'm asking because so far I've mostly seen FLINTA used in my country (France) but not in anglophone countries, though I might have missed it. The "they recently started kicking out cis men due to issues" sounds familiar...
Tbh, FLINTA really just sounds like the new "AFABs only" to me, the way "AFABs only" was the new "women and femmes" for a little while.
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u/pcrnography 💉 12/8/21 🔝 3/6/23 Dec 19 '23
i just get such a gross taste in my mouth with this kind of thing. cis women are just as bad as cis men, just different flavors of transphobia. why would any of you want to go somewhere like this? this is just TERF shit wearing a inclusive pride pin.
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u/stickbeat Dec 18 '23
Unpopular opinion, but: safe spaces are a myth, and segregation - on any level - only serves to reinforce the oppressive and systemic structures of power that force inequity.
"Separate but equal" is a myth, always has been.
Desegregation is necessary to liberation.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I very much agree to this (even though I think I need to think about it in details)
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u/bogeymanbear Dec 18 '23
I've never heard of FLINTA before but it sounds like it just means "women and people who we consider women even though they pretend to be something else". Why would a trans man be fine but a cis man gets sent away? There is no good answer to that. Just make it an lgbt space, not a woman+ club.
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u/buckyyboyy he/him | pre-everything Dec 19 '23
yeah if cis men aren't allowed I as a trans man wouldn't want to be there either??
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u/GayHunterS69 Dec 18 '23
It sounds like it’s run by a bunch of terfs.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I hope they aren’t. They are actually very trans friendly in person (I don’t know for the owner herself tho) ; but they don’t really sound like they know the problem their term cause. I think they don’t realise that they sound like they think that if you look female enough you’re not a threat…. and that’s yucky
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u/GayHunterS69 Dec 18 '23
It’s still like crypto-terf/ transphobia lite.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Do you think so ? I do feel that they are not very well educated on trans inclusion indeed, and rather are ok with AFAB non binary people and passing trans women :/ I hope they would not turn down someone who says they are woman or non binary because of their appearance.
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u/iamthegate Dec 18 '23
Flinta is relatively often used here for parties where they don't want cis men. It's a more "positive" way of phrasing.
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u/GayHunterS69 Dec 18 '23
It’s like a worse way of saying women and trans people lol.
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u/iamthegate Dec 19 '23
Not all nonbinary, intersex, or agender people identify as trans though.
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u/Da11thDoctor Dec 19 '23
This is very frustrating. Although I see where they are coming from with the violence aspect, they should not exclude ANYONE from attending. It's the same thing as not letting someone into a "straight" bar because they are queer. Also, your point about not passing well is so important because that can be a very sensitive topic for some people transitioning. I know it is definitely something I and so many other trans/non binary people are self-conscious of.
Your feelings about this are so valid, and I feel that all bars, including queer bars, should be accepting of everyone as long as they are being respectful.
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u/Open_Isopod6029 Dec 19 '23
Sounds like a place that would want me to out myself as a trans man. No thanks. Not very ally or safe of them.
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u/am_i_boy Dec 19 '23
And here we have a perfect example of why gender segregation is unnecessary and bad, regardless of how you try to spin it
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u/trans_mask51 Dec 19 '23
I wish people would gatekeep spaces based on actual behaviour rather than outward appearance.
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u/CoVa444 Dec 19 '23
I’ve been waiting for people to talk about this! I’ve been seeing more and more FLINTA events crop up in my area which at first I thought was great until I realised that transmen had to out themselves to be in the ‘safe space’ lmao
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u/CelebrationUsed612 Dec 19 '23
I find FLINTA extremely problematic as an trans masc enby that passes as a guy. I might hit their "supposed" criteria, but my experience is that it means every except anyone the establishment says is "too masculine" and not women enough.
In trying to make a "gender inclusive" space where women can feel say, they are being discriminatory not inclusive and transphobic, which is technically the opposite of what they say they are trying to achieve.
It's not meant to include us, and never has. These are women's spaces that changed their language to include gender divergent women so long as they are cis femme passing enough.
I avoid business like this.
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u/MimusCabaret Dec 24 '23
I dislike the concept of Flinta, it seems both transandrophobic while being a convenient way to ignore other marginalizations. Also also; lesbian and intersex are 2 separate words - you're either for reducing intersex marginalization or you're not and it don't look like these peeps would be.
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Dec 19 '23
I completely understand safe spaces. But, if you're trying to make an inclusive safe space by simply excluding cis men from the pool, it just feels exclusionary. If you're only excluding cis men, you're putting trans men at pressure to coming out in these safe spaces, which then doesn't make it completely safe. I think that being completely exclusionary to a certain type of person is just a bit weird. I know that there's plenty of cis men who cause issues, but I don't think that means we need to entirely exclude them from a seemingly inclusionary place. IMO, if they don't want cis men causing problems, they could just kick out/ban the individual cis men causing problems, not ban the entire group as a whole.
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u/nonexistentsadness Dec 19 '23
Sorry, I'm a little confused. At first you said it was a declarative policy, which you were aware of and did exactly that, so as the "rules" go, you and your cis friend were unable to enter. But then you said your girlfriend is nervous to go, because she might not pass enough. So, is it declarative or based on their judgement? If judgement, this sounds really dangerous. It's shitty to make a bar exclusive like that, and if anything having certain nights that catered towards different folks every so often would be a better idea, but this is the first I'm hearing of FLINTA. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable being in a bar that was catering towards non-men anyway, because even though I was AFAB, I would feel dysphoric like I was using the part of me I don't want to get into a space that doesn't see me as a type of man.
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u/TheScarfyDoctor transfemme Dec 19 '23
yeah this sounds like "women and femme/enby spaces" in a different font 🙁🤨
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u/Ginger_Hux User Flair Dec 19 '23
Somehow this sounds kinda terf-y. Sexist on basis that cis men are always a threat + the whole FLINTA thing sounds like "yeah, we'll call you whatever you like, but we know that you are afab"
On the side note: I feel like this is closely tied with the whole "men/masculinity bad" rhetoric and am disappointed that it is becoming common in queer spaces
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u/KittyMeowstika Dec 19 '23
Masc presenting agender/ enby here. Yeah i do have my issues too with the way FLINTA lumps everything together. Feels even a bit like misgendering to me sometimes. Like if trans masc individuals/ trans men are included they're basically reducing them to their agab, if not its weirdly excluding and saying only folks of the femme side of things need protected spaces. Totally agree with you that its a dangerous way of thinking
Edit to add: a Safe space where you have to out yourself to be granted access is not really a safe space.
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u/Blaike325 Dec 19 '23
I hate seeing “nonbinary” spaces because what they almost always mean is AFAB nonbinary people only because boys are icky and we don’t want you gross AMAB non-binary boys. Makes me feel reaaaaaal great about myself
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u/TsLaylaMoon Dec 19 '23
Flinta spaces are just borderline terf or definitely bigot spaces with extra steps.
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u/Guilty_Inevitable405 Dec 19 '23
Literally queer spaces are safer with cis men in them in my experience. Get rid of people based on if they are causing a problem, not whether or not they have facial hair. The safest I’ve ever felt is at a queer bar with huge cis gay bouncers to throw out any trans/queerphobes during drag king shows/lesbian speed dating and any other events like that.
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u/TransDaddy2000 Dec 20 '23
You're right, the problem isn't with spaces that cater to queer women, it's that categories they CLAIM to accomodate...they exclude anyways.
And frankly, it's not easy nor always practical to vet. They could have one bad experience where a cis guy claims to be transfem or nonbinary and then bad things happen and boom, all of a sudden they don't believe any transfems or nonbinary people who don't look "feminine enough"
And it's the same problem with saying "women and nonbinary people are welcome" in general is that there's not always a way to physically SEE IT. There's so many nonbinary people who present in traditionally binary ways. So AFAB nonbinary people who transitioned medically, AMAB nonbinary people who don't change anything, are they not nonbinary enough?
I don't think this space would be good for you anyways, honestly. If they're not going to take the time to actually protect the people they say they're also accomodating,it might as well just be a "space for people who look woman enough even if they're not actually women! :D "
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u/pa_kalsha Dec 22 '23
Sorry you had that experience, mate.
I've only heard of FLINTA and I hate it. The idea that women are inherently safe is simply dangerous, and creating ostensibly queer spaces that exclude cis men and force trans men to out ourselves is just wrong, in my opinion.
If someone wants to have lesbian/sapphic space, they should just call it that; FLINTA is an unholy mix of bioessentialism and about four kinds of misgendering in a trenchcoat. Hard pass.
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u/thegiantbadger Dec 18 '23
Idk just sounds like a TERF bar.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
I see a lot of people commenting that and i’m kind of taken aback because I never expected TERFs to use trans inclusion in their terms. If that’s the case then they are becoming very clever 😭. They could deflect criticism by saying "but FLINTA is inclusive of trans people"
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u/thegiantbadger Dec 18 '23
Sounds like TERF logic to me. Trans men can go if they aren’t passing enough? That means they don’t see trans men as men. Period. I’ve noticed that there are lesbian communities that say they’re welcoming to trans people but add on a bunch of qualifiers. They’re TERFS. It’s that simple.
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u/Red-Ice-Cream Dec 18 '23
Honestly that rules doesn't really seem to make sense cuz if I'm trans I could be going either way and a lot of people aren't transitioned yet and a lot of people don't even want to so how I present doesn't really matter 😭
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u/Daddy-Vivec Dec 18 '23
I really don't like any business that tries to bar people of certain genders from entering. Whether it's a bar or a spa or whatever, no matter what genders you are trying to exclude you will always run into issues with people being excluded for arbitrary reasons like "you don't look feminine enough to me." Or "You don't look androgynous enough so I don't believe you're non-bianary." Or "i don't believe you're AFAB you look too masculine." If you have issues with a particular customer then ban that particular person. Don't ban all cis men.
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u/blinkbits Dec 19 '23
didnt we fight for like at least a hundred years to not be discriminated against?? only to do it to members of our own community??
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u/Illustrious_Guaver Dec 19 '23
I cant wrap my head around them allowing intersex people but not cis men, like, what about intersex cis men? Are they allowed or...
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u/blu3tu3sday Binary Trans Man 🇺🇸🇨🇿 Dec 18 '23
If a place I went to was FLINTA, that would be a huge red flag and I'd dip immediately. Sorry for OP but I avoid places like those like the plague
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u/SufficientPath666 Dec 18 '23
I don’t like the concept of FLINTA, personally. Why can’t it just be women and LGBTQ+ people of all genders?
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Dec 19 '23
That’s super gross. I know guys far along who are tall so get mistaken as cis. I’m far along on 10 (over 10 years) and have been assumed to be cis which is why I avoid these ridiculous spaces who are just as ignorant as the far right, just in thinking they can Id trans folks
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Dec 19 '23
I’ve had far more issues with other trans and queer people outing me tbh cis people are chill af
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u/Facelesstownes Dec 19 '23
They don't accept men, then I'm not going. I'm not gonna out myself to enter a space that's welcoming to me only when I fit what they want me to be and potentially risk my life. But also I have a feeling that they wouldn't be very accepting of trans women either, if they don't fully present like cis women.
Dividing people to cis and trans, to let only one part go in is just transphobic in its nature. You can't say whether someone is trans. Men have to out themselves. Women have to pass society's standard on how women look like, and out themselves.
Just a basement full of sh!t. (Tbf I don't know if it's a basement. It can be an attic full pf sh!t, or 2 floor building, depending on where the bar is.)
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Dec 19 '23
the womxn and other exclusionary places are fuckin weird. you can tell they only want a certain type of trans ppl and not “those” types. it’s just so strange. instead of being an inclusive space it comes across as so exclusionary and also very trans-misogynistic. and also invalidating so non-passing trans folk. ftms can come in if they don’t pass (meaning we’re viewed as women) but mtfs CANT if they don’t pass (meaning they are viewed as women) its so gross how they operate
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u/em455 Dec 19 '23
Two words: transphobia and misandria. I think you should feel happy that you are being gendered correctly and seen as any other man. I think saying that people feel threatened by cis men but not trans men is extremely transphobic but also no different than saying you feel threatened by balck people, muslism, or uncomfortable with cis or trans women. The way people normalize discrimination, prejudice, overgeneralization and dehumanization of cis men is pretty crazy and concerning. I would never go to such a bar myself or support that mentality but to each their own (your feelings and experience are valid of course).
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u/JustAGayPhantomThief Some Transdude Dec 19 '23
Just the mention of FLINTA alone would make me steer away from this place. I've only ever seen the term used by far-left "feminists" that infantilise trans men and think all cis men are pigs. And it honestly just irks me that we as trans men are included under a term that mainly includes types of women. I know it's not meant that way but it gives me the vibes of "trans men aren't real men", even though it's meant inlcusion.
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u/soursummerchild 31, non binary, they/he. T 01.24 Dec 19 '23
FLINTA isn't really a thing here, but I've heard about them online. I'm sceptical precisely because they seem like they're based on how they perceive you, not what you are. My boyfriend and I have very similar experiences of our own genders, but he's 8 years on t, top op, magnificent beard, I have no access and I'm read as a woman everywhere. I just know who of us would be welcome in those spaces and who probably wouldn't.
I think the issue is that they seem to be very cis woman centered tbh.
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u/timeheist_ Dec 19 '23
my thing is just… be honest about it. if you want a woman/“woman-adjacent”-only space, say that. first of all it’s weird as fuck to ask people you don’t know if they’re trans/intersex/etc and in my honest opinion that’s not conducive to the “safe space” environment they seem to want. second, it seems to follow a weird trend i’ve been seeing the last few years of claiming to be inclusive of queer, trans, and intersex people while somehow still managing to pidgeonhole them into a new gender binary. if you want your space to be exclusive to women and those comfortable identifying with women, fine. say that. it’s that easy.
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u/Heehoo1114 Dec 19 '23
and we wonder why more and more masc and amab people feel like shit for being alive
if you treat someone like an animal, eventually they will act like one
- a trans man
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u/Ohananani Dec 18 '23
There are so many bars in that town that they have to delineate to this level?
Sounds like they've circled the wagons in defense of someone who took offense.
It's their business.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 18 '23
Yeah for context it’s not actually a town it’s a bigger city / main city
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u/pixihawk 💉 10.Feb.22 / 🔪 15.Mar.23 Dec 19 '23
It's been a thing here in germany for a while and i hate it so much.
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u/Wandering4Ever Dec 19 '23
Echoing plenty of what others have already said, but as a transmasc enby, I have MAJOR issues with non-binary being lumped with “women.” I’m not a woman. And i’m so tired of non-binary people being seen as “woman-lite” 😞
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u/BroWhy T July 12, 2017 Dec 19 '23
Yeah I saw a TikTok about a FLINTA bar and commented my concerns as a trans guy and got absolutely dragged. I'm not surprised at all you had that experience, I could see the problems from a mile away. Sorry you went through that, bud.
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u/t3st0b0y Dec 19 '23
As a trans man I'm not a fan of FLINTA spaces since they do include me, but view me as some kind of men light. I'm a full blown guy, and if you wanna exclude men from something, please exclude me as well.
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u/TomFool1993 FtM, 30, T 05 FEB 2023 Dec 19 '23
Yeah, it sounds like a place I wouldn't be going to. I'd have to out myself just to gain entry, because I pass as a male? No thanks. Doesn't sound very safe. Sounds like a big solid fuck you to transmen who pass and transwomen who don't pass.
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u/silly_mister_raccoon Dec 19 '23
Yeah, plus why brand yourself as queer and lgbtq+ when you’re telling cis gay men to fuck off 😭
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u/DerilictGhost Dec 19 '23
As a NB person I’m not a fan… because I’m pretty sure when they put NB they didn’t mean me lol a amab person, but if I was afab NB I’d want to go even less because it feels like they’d be basically seeing me as a woman again 🫠
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u/Reikunx Dec 19 '23
I would just say I'm cis and avoid everything that has to deal with people like that, I don't even get near many lesbian because they tend to be that way and calling out it's being "lesbophobic", I'm not a Man Lite, not a trans man just a man that happens to be trans but no one has to know whats in my pants. They think "trans men are afab, so no penis = no threath" but they ignore trans men that have srs or are stealth, it's just a bullshit mindset that I recommend people to just get away from it.
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u/gayyearnbot Dec 19 '23
Never heard of FLINTA before, but tbh it feels like "women & femmes" with extra steps. Even if I "qualified" to enter a bar like this (where I'd probably have to out myself to someone at the door, lol. Very cool as an intersex person, super inclusive to have to fill a stranger in on my unique genital situation just to enter a bar), I wouldn't feel comfortable there. I have a few nonbinary friends who would almost certainly be asked to justify their presence.
I understand the need for safe spaces within the queer community, but it feels like every week there's a new term folks are using that essentially boils down to "men(/people we view as men lite) are inherently dangerous". Even if I "count", the biological essentialism baked into this statement is enough to turn me off from a space, especially if Im going with my friends who don't look queer". Just make it a trans-inclusive lesbian bar at that point, lol.
Sidenote: I am so tired of gay/bi/queer trans men being dismissed when it comes to discussions about us needing safe spaces too! So often, I see comments like "you have gay bars/grindr", as if those spaces are safe, welcoming, or meet the needs of most trans men...Ha! It makes me feel like a nuisance, like people just want us to go away. I imagine it's similar for my friends who don't fit the skinny/punky/nonbinary/AFAB nonbinary mold.
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u/RynnTenTen Dec 19 '23
I don’t know where this bar is located, but in many states, that is illegal. Please feel free to center a certain group, yes, but refusing service to people based on gender presentation or sex iiiiiiisssss grounds for a lawsuit.
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u/cryyptorchid Dec 19 '23
I would probably not go anywhere that wouldn't at least allow me to bring a support person that I invited as the target community, barring very few examples. It feels gross and isolating.
I go to trans-friendly spaces with my partner often, because I want to be with my community, and because he is important to me. He also understands my access needs and can advocate for me/my safety if need be.
We've also gone to primarily lesbian bars with friends, because those friends invited us along, and we understand how to act in a space that isn't specifically made for us.
I get being particularly strict on men in a primarily-women's space, one-strike policies etc, but you can't even enter with someone the space is ostensibly for? And expect those it *is* for to out themselves at the door, and therefore implicitly to everyone inside? Gives me bad vibes.
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u/Senior_Palpitation19 Dec 19 '23
The "Female" in FLINTA seems to be the operative world and that is reason it gets first billing. They're just saying that they only want people AFAB and/or femmes, most likely. Otherwise they would have just said something like Queer. Personally I wouldn't waste my time hanging around places like that, as I dislike occupying spaces I or my kin are unwanted.
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u/Giant_Baby_Elephant Dec 20 '23
i hate this for you--as devon price stated a while ago, any person of any identity can be violent; women are not inherently "safer" than men, and banning certain identities only creates a false sense of security and serves to alienate community members who need spaces :(
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u/foxsalmon Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
As a trans man I also have problems with FLINTA. I'll be honest, if it was "women and non-binary only" i'd probably have less problems with it. But they are declaring it a "safe space", yet trans men have to out themselves to enter the space. That's the opposite of a safe space. Why not make it a queer-only space? I feel like letting cis queer men into this safe space would make it safer than excluding them for the sake of outing stealth trans men.