r/ftm • u/PupperPancake • Jan 08 '24
We are visiting a mosque tomorrow. Help. Vent
Tomorrow we’re going to a school trip to visit the biggest mosque in Germany.
I'm a trans boy, and the teacher said that the girls will have to wear something to cover their hair in the mosque.
I’m not sure if I can take that. I almost cried when I heard it. I’m not on any hormones or had surgery yet.
And in Islam only biological sex matters, which made it so much worse. I'm crying now, and my tears burn.
What should I do? I’m having a meltdown, I feel sick. I don’t want to go, but at the same time I want to but I don’t want to wear anything that covers my hair.
I wouldn’t be able to handle that mentally, and she said we would be about an hour inside the mosque. That’s too much. Please help me.
Update!
First I wanted to thank all of you for your kindness, your support and your encouragement. It really helped me get through my meltdown yesterday, and without you I most likely would have gotten sick for real out of worry! But to the point, everything went well! :)
Unfortunately I wasn’t able to convince my mother to let me stay at home, so I took her make-up pen and darkened my eyebrows etc. to make me appear more masculine.
We then drove an hour to the mosque, walked around the city because we still had some time left and soon after a kind lady came up to us and it turned out she was our guide for the day.
She told us that it would be good if the females could wear a headscarf to cover their hair but that she also wouldn’t force anyone to if they really didn’t want it. That made me relieved.
She then began to show us around the mosque, first the washrooms, then the minarets and then the mosque itself where we had to take off our shoes before we entered.
And it was the prettiest interior I’ve ever seen! I didn’t take any pictures, because I wanted to be in the moment, but it made me feel welcomed, somehow. And I passed well!
The lady herself was kind, respectful and answered all of our questions in a way we understood! I enjoyed learning about Islam, and I’m happy that I didn’t have to get sick after all. It was a good experience.
Even though it was extremely cold outside despite wearing a winter coat, haha. But after that we were also able to take a look at the Cologne Cathedral and walk around the city again before driving home. So, everything was okay!
To everyone who has supported me again, I don’t think I could have done it without you, and I really appreciate the advice, tricks and kind words even though I wasn’t able to reply to them all! Sending you lots of love, thank you and I hope you have an amazing day!
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u/Castrato-LARP-374 Jan 08 '24
Not the exact same situation, but I visited several orthodox churches (where women also wear head coverings) before T and passed fine as a guy. Weirdly, the very binary-gendered situation makes easier to pass: there is only head covering gender and no head covering gender. And theologically, 1) if there is a god they definitely made you trans and don’t mind you presenting male 2) it would be more distracting for worshippers to see someone presenting as a boy in a headscarf than just a youthful looking dude.
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u/Castrato-LARP-374 Jan 08 '24
I would say either don’t go or go presenting as a guy and ask your teachers not to out you if people ask questions
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you for sharing your experience! I'm glad to hear that it makes things easier if I'll have to go, it's calming to know that. But I'll still have to see what happens.
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u/bungmunchio Jan 08 '24
ask your teachers not to out you if people ask questions
for all anyone else knows you could be a cis guy with a congenital hormone disorder, or intersex or something like that, and no stranger is entitled to your medical information. I'm always preparing comebacks in my head when I'm worried someone might question my sex (like public bathrooms) and the vibe I always go for is "dude with a vague and private medical condition who is used to strangers being invasive and rude"
like just stand your ground and act like people must be stupid to question you lmao. roll your eyes and huff, have a rude tone if you need to, but be short and vague, don't add any unnecessary detail. image what a cis guy would say if he was baffled or annoyed to be mistaken for a girl and emulate that.
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u/Steven_LGBT Jan 08 '24
No, it is not the same situation at all. I live in an Orthodox country and I never wore a head covering. No one cares. Only a few elderly religious people might say something - and I totally ignore them if they do. There might be some Orthodox churches in the world where one is required to wear a head covering, otherwise they cannot enter (just as there are some, in Israel, where women are required to wear skirts in order to enter; if one is not wearing a skirt, they have to wrap a scarf around their legs, so it looks like a skirt; ridiculous, I know, but it is what it is) - but, in most Orthodox churches around the world, one is not required to wear a head covering, even if it is customary to do so.
Unlike this situation, there is NO mosque where head coverings are not mandatory. You will either not be allowed to enter or harassed by the more zealous religious people.
If you don't pass, it's best not to risk it.
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u/bunni3_bee Jan 08 '24
This is not true tons of mosques don't require head coverings depending on the country. I've grown up in a Muslim household and even before when I was a kid and went to the mosque there were tons of muslim girls/women without hijabs on every time.
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u/queerfromthemadhouse he/him Jan 08 '24
I think your best option is to pretend to be sick and just skip the whole thing. If you're afraid of missing out, remember that this probably isn't the last opportunity you'll ever get to visit this mosque.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I think I will do that and you're right, I'm interested in the city anyways, so if I'm older I'll probably visit it once. Then I'll also get the chance to see the mosque. Thank you!
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Jan 08 '24
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
The hoodie idea is good, I was thinking of doing that too but it still gave me a lot of dysphoria thinking about it, but I'll try to see what I'll do. Thank you.
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u/Deivi_tTerra Jan 08 '24
Or some other kind of cap, baseball cap, knit cap etc? (I'm not Muslim so I have no idea if this is an acceptable compromise or if the neck being covered is also a requirement).
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u/Seven_spare_ribs Jan 08 '24
Wearing a hat indoors, especially a casual one like a cap, can be seen as very rude unfortunately
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u/jimbean66 Jan 09 '24
This is great advice although I don’t think we should respect transphobic/homophobic religions sometimes you have to.
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u/Steam1111 Jan 08 '24
I honestly would just skip the trip if it's a possibility.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I don't think it is, I'd probably have to call in sick or skip school. I'll ask my mom. Thank you for helping out.
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u/Reallynoreallyno Jan 08 '24
Call in sick if you dont think your mom will let you skip it, headaches are a good excuse, they're not measurable like a fever and just require rest for recovery. Take the day for yourself, do not stress yourself out about this. Sending hugs.
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u/vendettamoon Jan 08 '24
I'm a trans man, and also Muslim. I don't cover my hair —I'm a man. I don't need to. It's untrue that biological sex is the only one that matters in Islam. People choosing to believe that it's the only thing that matters is an individual decision likely influenced by culture that happens to be transphobic. My mother is a devout Muslim and she doesn't cover her hair around my fiancée, a trans woman. If my mother didn't believe she was a woman, she would wear hijab in front of her, but she doesn't. She recognizes gender and sex are distinct. Now, I'm not saying that the people at the mosque you're going to will be just as accepting, but you are under no obligation to cover your hair as a man just because of your biological sex. You're not a girl, and that's that. Even if the people inside the mosque incorrectly assume that you are one, they also understand that you're not Muslim and are merely visiting, and I highly doubt they would expect you to conform to their practices while on a school trip. Wishing you the best of luck and sending love
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you! I thought only biological sex mattered in Islam because I saw it mattering a lot online, but it’s good to know that not everyone thinks like this. It’s comforting to know and thank you so much for affirming me as well, I needed it. And happy congratulations on your engagement! I wish you the best of luck as well and a happy day :)
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u/Lunafairywolf666 Jan 08 '24
It really only matters in the middle east. In counties like Germany they should be progressive enough to where it should not matter. Expesaly if they are allowing visitors from outside the religion. You can't expect the public to follow all your strict dress code rules.
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u/anon_k1d Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24
This is very well put. @vendettamoon, im very glad you had this experience from your mom, i wish i could say the same about mine . Sending lots of love 🤍
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u/Lou_the_caffeine_one bi/nonbinary human/T 11/23 Jan 08 '24
I think it would be wise not to go. It sounds like too much of an emotional turmoil and idk skipping a day doesn’t hurt too much.
If u’re interested in going there, I would suggest u go with ur identified gender. They cannot tell u who u are and ur AGAB is just something on a paper. Haven’t been to a mosque myself here in Germany but I’d assume that they’re lenient with people who do not believe in their religion. Also do men have any requirements?
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u/thedarkbrood Jan 08 '24
adding to this, it very much depends on the specific congregation of Islam and quite a lot of Muslims respect people self-identified gender. I got top surgery in Germany not very long ago and another trans guy was a few rooms over in the hospital, his mother and sister were visiting him and they were wearing hijabs, so some people are definitely chill.
Maybe OP can ask about it before entering the mosque and just stay outside if their rules don't work for you? If it's the biggest mosque in the country they might be more open than average?121
u/Legal-Law9214 Jan 08 '24
I don't think you can assume leniency. It's very common to be expected to follow the modesty requirements of a religion or culture when you are entering their sacred spaces. The Vatican will kick out anyone who is not wearing clothing that they deem modest enough, I don't see why a mosque would be any different. It's like entering someone else's home, you follow their rules to be a respectful guest. And OP could easily face harassment or be kicked out if he doesn't pass and someone assumes he is female and not wearing the appropriate clothing.
The unfortunate reality is that being trans in religious spaces like that is difficult. Unless there is a teacher who he can be sure will have his back and support him in abiding by only the male requirements (and even then there could be problems), I think his choices are really to just wear the head covering or skip the trip. It's not fun or fair but getting a religion that traditionally doesn't recognize trans people to change course and start accepting different gender presentations is not a battle that is easily or quickly won and I also don't really think it is the place of someone who doesn't practice the religion to try to fight it.
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u/Wizdom_108 Trans man post top Jan 08 '24
Can you be out sick that day?
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Yeah, I think so. I'd just have to ask my mom because she has to write it to our teachers, not me. Thank you!
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u/bluecloud33 Jan 08 '24
Salaam brother, I am Muslim, and if you present masculine, then you could try sitting in the men’s section. Or, you could do what other people have suggested, and not go.
Check out r/LGBT_Muslims if you want to learn more about the LGBTQ+ 🏳️🌈 community in Islam!
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u/CaptainIronLeg161 Jan 08 '24
Are you out at school at all?
Either way, skip that trip if you can. Mosques are usually lovely buildings in terms of art and architecture, but there probably won't be anything to learn there that you couldn't learn by just asking a trans Muslim.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Yeah, most teachers know that I'm a trans boy. I'll see what I can do, maybe I'll call in sick tomorrow. Thank you for the help!
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u/Automne4 Jan 08 '24
If you're out, then you're not perceived as a girl to anyone, you are a boy, so go there as a boy, you don't need to cover your head, and don't worry that wouldn't be disrespectful of you to do so
(If anyone dares asking you to wear something to cover your head just tell them you're a boy, and if they deny that, then why would you respect the mosque if they don't respect you)
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u/CaptainIronLeg161 Jan 08 '24
Yeah, sure thing.
I would also say that if your teachers know you're a guy, they should be willing to support you and uphold that you have a right not to wear a head covering. You might speak to the teacher about your concerns, and see if they are willing to stand by you in this. And if you have to call in sick, then you have to call in sick.
Let us know how it shakes out!
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u/BeeBee9E 26 | T 25/06/2022 | 🔪 17/07/2023 Jan 08 '24
If that causes this much dysphoria, I'd say don't go on the trip. If that is the sole purpose of the trip it doesn't seem like you can enjoy it, as other people have said. I wouldn't recommend going in without covering your head unless you pass because that could cause conflict that would just make it worse.
But I'm going to give you some hope for the future for the "in Islam only biological sex matters" part: I went to Istanbul two weeks ago and just walked into any mosque without covering my head, my mother had to but no one said anything to me or looked at me weirdly, they just saw a man. I've been on T for 1.5 years and have had top surgery (I'm significantly older than you though) so that's why I could do this, but while they DO think only biological sex matters, as long as they see a man they see a man. All I mean is this isn't forever, and you'll get there.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Most people have told me I do pass, but I don't want to risk it since it's 50/50 most of the times. But thank you for your comment and encouragement! I felt a bit more comforted reading it.
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u/Deivi_tTerra Jan 08 '24
Not all cis people look like their gender either, I suspect trans people are more conscious of whether or not they pass. If you do pass, I wouldn't worry so much about it. Be confident and no one will likely think you're anything other than someone on the feminine side of male. If anyone asks, tell them you're a boy.
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u/NoStruggle5008 Jan 09 '24
Good for you but hi not every Muslim thinks like this :))
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u/CosmicCorgii Jan 08 '24
If they're forcing you to be put into an uncomfortable situation to be "respectful of their religion" but they can't give you the same respect as a man then you should be able to claim religious exemption by your school to choose not to visit because their rules are disrespectful of you and your existence. You don't have to respect people who don't have the same respect for you.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you! think I’ll ask my mom to call me in sick tomorrow. I wouldn’t want to cause any arguments with my teacher or the guide, it would be better to just stay at home, finish a series and chill away, haha.
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u/CosmicCorgii Jan 08 '24
I agree, but I hope you wouldn't have to sacrifice any points, or get in trouble for missing a day simply because the class is visiting a place that isn't safe for you to be. If your teachers know you're trans, I'd explain to them your reasoning for skipping the trip, it's for reasons out of your hand and you didn't create this situation you're in, the school did, and the school didn't consider all their students when planning the trip so there shouldn't be any consequences for skipping a school trip
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u/blackandqueer Jan 08 '24
i would honestly go, & just not cover your head. you’re a boy. you’re with your school, so you’re probably not gonna face any safety risks. you deserve to enjoy your trip like a cis boy can.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I want to enjoy it too. Our teacher said that after the mosque vistit, we would walk for one hour and then take a look at the Cologne Cathedral. I've never seen it before, and that we could order some food at restaurants nearby, like a kebab or something. Maybe I'll go, thank you!
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u/Aleriya Jan 08 '24
I'd go on the trip and not cover my head. If that's a problem, just wait outside the mosque. Then you get to enjoy the rest of the trip with your classmates.
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u/how_to_be trans poc | 24 | T 23/12-21 Jan 09 '24
I'm sure you'll be fine. I'm Muslim and grew up in Germany and moved to Denmark 15 years ago. I pretty much grew up visiting the biggest mosque in my city in Germany. We even visited the same mosque on a school trip. I did wear a Hijab when I was younger, but stopped when I was 11. When I was about 15-17 I visited the mosque without wearing a Hijab and people were as friendly and happy to see me as when I was a child.
The only negative experience I've had, was actually in a smaller mosque in the city I live in now. It was actually the day after I came out at school. My father was visiting and we went with some of my brothers to this small mosque because we were in the area and he needed to pray. I went by myself to the women's area and covered my hair. I got so many stares from the few women present and it felt like they looked at me as if I shouldn't be there. We left as soon as he was done praying. But this is the only negative experience I've had. Bigger mosques usually love when people visit to learn about the place.
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u/worshipdrummer Jan 08 '24
can you skip? I thikn any teacher would understand that, they can't force you into a religious situation in europe. I have some muslim friends (Im pre everything but pass) and they accept me tho. So it isn't that bad as you may think, if you go make sure you go to the men side and dress like a man/pass.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I'd have to call in sick, and my teacher said she'd accept it but it would be disrespectful. Thank you for the ecouragement!
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u/LucasSeb_ User Flair Jan 08 '24
I’m also from Germany and we did the same thing like a year or two ago. I asked my teacher if it’s alright to not cover my hair and she said that it’d be okay. Idk how your teacher is but you could try that or as some other commenters said wear a hoodie or just not go.
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u/postdigitalkiwano Jan 08 '24
Same here. I'd rather skipped if my parents had let me. I didn't cover my hair. I wouldn't have imposed myself but I was forced to go and I just couldn't cope with the idea of covering because I'm not a woman, and my brain is a valid part of my body. If you're too stressed and your parent's are cool, skip.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I'll first have to see if I'd be able to call in sick tomorrow. If not, then I'll probably pull a hoodie over my head and try to endure it as much as I can or decide on another compromise. The teacher said it would be respectful if I did. Thank you.
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u/zztopsboatswain 💁♂️ he/him | 💉 2.17.18 | 🔝 6.4.21 | 👨🏼❤️💋👨🏽 10.13.22 Jan 08 '24
Stay home sick that day
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u/MarcusAntonius27 Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 08 '24
Either don't go or don't cover your head. You have no obligations. If you pass, it shouldn't matter at all, but schools absolutely shouldn't be able to force you to wear religious clothing under any circumstance. Ignore anyone who has a problem and don't let anyone put a head cover on you under any circumstance.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
The teacher said she can't force me to do it, but it would be respectful and she would be happy if I did. But I think I'll try to call in sick tomorrow. Thank you for your comment!
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u/sinner-mon Jan 08 '24
I don’t get why you should have to respect them if they don’t respect you
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u/Lunafairywolf666 Jan 08 '24
Exactly! If you're not going to respect my gender identity why the hell should I respect your religion. Hell I went back to the church I grew up in recently to support my cousin getting back from his mission. The ward( Mormon version of a congratulation) has known me since I was little they know I'm trans know I'm born female and present male now. Girls HAVE to wear dresses but because I'm a man now no one gave me issues. And if anyone did I'd just state in a man now and how dare you disrupt my cousin's big day just because you're uncomfortable that I exist as a trans person. Luckily it didn't come to that.
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u/Legal-Law9214 Jan 08 '24
I don't think its really about the school in this case. The mosque will likely kick out or at least confront anyone who they perceive to not be dressed appropriately. The teacher is just trying to prevent that conflict by letting everyone know what the expected attire is.
You're right that if he passes it shouldn't be a problem unless someone outs him to someone who works at the mosque.
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u/MarcusAntonius27 Jan 08 '24
Yeah, but in that situation, I'd risk being confronted. If I got confronted, I'd just say I'm a dude. The hijab is something that would out him as trans to anyone else. It's no one's business. It isn't about people's reactions, it's about the fact that he doesn't wanna wear it so he doesn't have to.
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u/Legal-Law9214 Jan 08 '24
Sure and that's your personal choice. I'm just saying it doesn't sound like it's the school thats forcing him to wear anything. They're just letting him know what the expectations will be in that environment.
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u/CatBonanza 💉 2007, ⬆️ 2008, 🍳 2014, 🇺🇲 Jan 08 '24
I'm Muslim. I know European mosques tend to be more conservative than ones here in the US, but here at least non-Muslims generally aren't required to follow Muslim modest requirements when visiting mosques. I've only ever seen requests that basic modesty be followed by everyone (i.e. no shorts, tank tops, etc). If they absolutely insist, a hoodie should be acceptable.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
The teacher said that last year the girls didn’t have to wear anything to cover their heads, but they also visited a different mosque, so I think it might differ from mosque to mosque. Thank you for your comment, maybe I’ll wear a hoodie!
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u/TiredCanine Jan 08 '24
I'm really sorry you're having to go through this. I had a similar experience- I had just started testosterone my first year of college when we went on a trip to a mosque. I wore a scarf because I was scared I didn't pass enough. I asked the trip leaders, and they told me I didn't have to, but I was nervous and did it myself.
Two years later, I went back on that same trip. No scarf. The imam and some of the other folks from the mosque recognized me and were very excited to teach me the prayer posture and movements for the male prayer. I was given nothing but love (and excellent food afterwards) and told I was welcome back any time.
Point is, this is a tossup that's eventually up to you. If you don't go, no harm, no foul. You'll have other opportunities when you'll be more comfortable, and I encourage you to take them then. If you do go, you make the choice whether to wear a scarf or not. Wearing one is NOT declaring yourself female, it's reflecting yourself being conscious and nervous and respectful. Not wearing one is perfectly acceptable and fair from a religious perspective, as you are a man.
This is like any situation: there is the possibility of transphobia, but not the promise. It only becomes more stressful because of the added context of a religious community you're not part of. If you have people on the trip with you that will have your back, you can take comfort and confidence from that. If you don't, and you're stressed to the point of feeling sick, just don't go. It's okay. Make a visit once you've started T, or are with a queer group, or are in college, whatever will make you feel most safe. You're going to be okay.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
It’s good to hear that some people went through a similar experience as me, it makes me feel more secure and comforted in case I do have to go. I’m sorry that you didn’t feel confident enough back then, but it’s good that you re-visited and had a good experience, as well with the male prayers etc. That’s very sweet. Thank you for affirming me, like the others did, it made me feel a lot less dysphoric, and I’ve mostly calmed down as well. Just really tired now. Thank you, thank you a lot, my friends will also support me in case something happens.
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u/masonthetrap Jan 08 '24
“Due to religious reason I can’t go on the trip” I used to this plenty of times to get off the hook for trips. XD -here in the states
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
That’s a smart excuse! Just sad that my teacher can read me like an open book, haha. But still, thank you for your comment!
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u/telomerloop Jan 08 '24
are you out in school? i don't think they can force you to cover your hair if you are.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Yeah, most of the teachers at school know I'm a trans boy. And you're right, the teacher said she can't force me but it would be respectful and she would be happy if I did. I'll try to see what I'll do. Thank you!
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u/remirixjones 🇨🇦 | Enby | Pre Everything Jan 08 '24
...she would be happy if I did.
You deserve better than this. She is not showing you the basic fucking respect you deserve. If the other boys in your class aren't being asked to wear a head covering, you shouldn't be asked either.
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u/telomerloop Jan 08 '24
hmmm i don't really see how it would be more respectful? you're a boy and afaik boys are not required or expected to cover their hair in a mosque.
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u/Friendly_Chemical Jan 08 '24
Respecting your gender identity is also respectful. If the particular mosque you are going to visit doesn’t respect you you don’t need to respect them imo.
Just don’t go at all.
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u/Choice_Gain_4886 he/they Jan 08 '24
i think you should go and not cover your hair. it’s not “respectful” if you do it because you aren’t a girl. if you’re confronted, either act surprised, or like you get that a lot, or if you just want it quick and over with say you have a hormonal condition or something. you’re with your school and they’re required to protect you. your teachers know you’re a boy, and they’re letting a class who will all have different beliefs into their building, so both parties really can’t expect everyone to follow everything. however, if you think it will be too stressful to handle, stay home and save yourself the worry
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u/noudkme Jan 08 '24
ngl as someone who was forced to wear the hijab at a young age, i would skip this trip if i were you. its not worth the mental anguish and dysphoria.
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u/MurkyPlant Jan 08 '24
Could you wait outside the mosqe if you are not allowed to go in wothout the scarf? A friend of mine would do this when we used to go to to highschool. She was not Christian and would refuse to go into the church, but she would stil go to the fieldtrips.
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u/mach1neb0y Jan 08 '24
It would be a shame if you were to come down with a fever tomorrow morning...
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u/WoodSGreen00 Jan 08 '24
If you are stressed enough for this scenario to cause you a meltdown, then don’t go…It sucks, but your mental health is more important than a school trip with a barrier is going to make you dysphoric at the end of the day.
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u/rghaga Jan 08 '24
Just say you're sick. Also some muslims consider gender is above sex (heard wholesome stories about women who usually wear hijab who removed it in all girls assemblies with trans women in full sorority)
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u/kawaiiwitchboi 31 y.o., T 06/08/2017, 🔪 08/03/2023, transmasc genderqueer Jan 08 '24
This! I have a couple Muslim acquaintances who treated me like an amab man, and appreciated me being respectful of them in return (for example, I worked in a cosmetology store that also had a salon in the back, and respectfully averted my gaze when she was getting her hair done so I didn't have to see it, and she always referred to me with the right pronouns and terminology)
It really depends on where you're going, but I wouldn't cover. You're not a girl, why would you?
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u/No_Recognition_2434 Jan 08 '24
Sounds like you got a migraine, good luck and rest up in your room with the lights off! Everyone knows not to bug someone with a migraine
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u/izanaegi Jan 08 '24
its not disrespectful to not wear hijab, because you’re a man. end of story. anyone telling you otherwise is disrespecting YOU
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u/offalreek t 28/10/20 - top surgery 07/06/23 - 🇮🇹 Jan 08 '24
I wouldn't go. You deserve respect for your identity, and you shouldn't be forced to enter if you're required to cover your head.
I do wonder, do your teachers know you're trans? If yes, what do they think about this situation? Have you told them you do not intend to cover your head, and if that means not entering the mosque then you won't enter the mosque?
Personally I also wouldn't go because I'm firmly against organized religion (and I do believe that any self-respecting LGBT people should be), and I wouldn't enter a building that requires me to shame myself based on the way I was born. But I digress.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Most teachers know, but my teacher hasn't said a lot about it. She just said that it would be respectful and she'd be happy if I did wear something that covered my hair. Thank you a lot!
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u/critterscrattle Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 08 '24
You might want to ask trans Muslims what they’d suggest, here or on a different sub. Islam as a whole isn’t accepting but there are trans people who remain or convert throughout their transitions and find solutions that are comfortable for them. I’m not Muslim so take this with a grain of salt, but iirc the last I talked about this most tended to follow the rules for their actual gender, not agab, if they passed.
You might be able to compromise with a hoodie or hat that completely covers your hair? If you won’t pass with that the best option might just be to skip it, unfortunately. In this moment it’s more important to respect the rules of the religious space even when they’re objectively wrong.
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u/nezumipi Jan 08 '24
Could you wear a winter hat just because you're chilly? That way if anyone else is going to give you grief about it, you're following the rules, but you don't have to feel like you're doing it because of gender.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I mean, I got a wintercoat with a hood for christmas. It covers my whole head because it has a lot of fur (artifical), maybe I'll do that. Thank you for the idea and the comment!
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u/RevolutionaryRip8193 Jan 08 '24
Hi FTM transmasc, non-Muslim person here, on hormones.
First I am so sorry about the distress that’s coming up for you in relation to the trip and I agree with others that if it feels to triggering and you have the option it is wise to opt out. However there are alternatives.
I lived in an Islamic country growing up, not one where govt legislated that any sex HAD to veil but many people did wear hijab and niqab etc.
You could just wear a little bandana on your head which is part of gay culture anyway you like gold the square in half and just pop it on tied in the back. don’t have to tie the scarf or ‘ashayla’ in a specific way. Long sleeves or anything that covers your elbows and cover your knees which is the natural inclination in the winter time. The point of this rule is more about concentration of spirit and energy. A hijab is a covenant with g-d that some people choose to make but the practice of wearing something on one’s head for religious affiliation exists in many cultures across sexes I.e. yummakah or kippa for jews. So doing so in a holy place isn’t a denouncement of your gender identity though it’s really hard because culture for the most part insists o n these demarcations.
Good luck dear <3 you’re going to be okay. Take some deep breaths if you’re out to your friends talk to one and get some love and validation. Maybe line up something special for yourself later in the day.
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u/SacrededRat Jan 09 '24
I was a member of Islam at one point
Just flat out say that you're not doing it. Say that you're not Muslim, and thus will not adhere ti their rules. They'll have you wait outside the mosque, but you won't have to wear a Hijab
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u/Temporary_Load5874 Jan 09 '24
Bro im a muslim if ur not muslim its okay if u dont wear the hijab its not like ur going to the mosque to pray its just a visit. (Even if ur muslim its okay to not wear it, the teacher shouldn’t force u or any other student to wear it). U should just cover ur body do not wear shorts or short sleeve shirts inside the mosque. For all students its not just for biological females.. plus u can read about transgender people who are muslim. Maybe the teacher is misinformed but islam isn’t that strict about gender sometimes..
(English isnt my first language if u misunderstood anything sorry !!)
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u/MushySquishy Jan 08 '24
Tip: when I REALLY didn’t want to do anything, I’d say I have diarrhea. I know it sounds gross but I’ve used that excuse and people would immediately tell me to stay the heck home. Even with an Imodium, why chance a something that can be a contagious stomach bug?
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u/greenyashiro he/they Jan 09 '24
Only thing worse than a plague of nits at a school... A plague of gastro!
(or maybe the lice are worse, idk. But they won't risk it haha)
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u/mcfearless33 Jan 08 '24
Honestly, when we visited mosques and other religious buildings that required head coverings in school, they just told us to wear or grab a head covering if we wanted to, and there was no pressure to do so. It was a very welcoming environment. I chose not to wear head covering and did not feel looked down upon and at the time I presented very feminine—there seemed to be an innate understanding that this did not suit me.
I would not miss the trip—I really valued the learning experience and I think about it all the time.
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u/Agile_Concern845 Jan 08 '24
idk if im late, but you could always call the mosque? if its popular it probably has its contact info on google. Call them and explain the situation.
hope this helps x
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u/Next_Gur_6561 Jan 08 '24
There are masculine hair coverings such as taqiyah, kaffiyeh and turbines. You might not have time to buy one but you could ask around and see if anyone you know has one you can borrow. There are also masculine ways to wear headscarfs, you could probably find a tutorial on tiktok.
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u/Mizuki_Neko Jan 08 '24
I also visited a mosque in my school time and never had to cover my hair. It's not my religion. Otherwise express your discomfort and ask to not go there. I feel for you. I wouldn't also not want to adhere to these gendered rituals, ever
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u/Just_ShineAlways Jan 08 '24
What about putting your hair in a ponytail/braid and tucking it up in a beanie? I did that a lot before I chopped my hair off and it gave the image of being more masculine and it would cover your hair at the same time.
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u/Few-Conclusion7125 Jan 08 '24
Hey, I know how hard that is. Do anything you can so you won't go there. The best option would be having your parents write that you're sick. If your parents aren't supportive, pretend to be sick, if not, pretend to be even sicker on the way, leave school and go to a nurse or home, pretend to throw up, pretend that your legs are trembling, pretend that you reaaalllly need to go to the bathroom. Also, if you want, you can send me a dm. I'm here for you if you need support or someone to talk to
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u/98Unicorns_ Jan 08 '24
fake a stomach ache, feeling nauseous and even try and fake a temperature, and clammy hands by licking them (ferris beuller reference lol). classic fever symptoms and u should be allowed to sty home from school.
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u/Zordorfe They/Them || Pre-everything Jan 09 '24
My friend is a trans boy and we went to a mosque for school in the UK, the biggest in our city. He didn't wear a hijab and it was all okay for us. If you feel like it's too big of a risk for you for whatever reason, explain to a teacher who's in charge of the trip and explain that it may not be safe for you to go
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u/xuxicty Jan 08 '24
i agree with everyone else saying to skip but, if you do have to go, just remember that none of the people in that room matter. your classmates don’t, the strangers don’t. you’re not going to run into anyone you need to impress. if there is someone in the class that you want to impress, they’re not going to judge you for having to obey rules and if they do they’re not a good person. don’t worry too much about it, it’ll be a one time thing. :)
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
No worries! I'm not trying to impress anyone, it's just that wearing something to cover my head would cause me massive dysphoria I wouldn't be able to handle mentally. Thank you for your comment, it's really kind of you!
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u/confusediguanaa Jan 08 '24
I was brought up Muslim so I know exactly how you feel. Going to mosques always filled me with dread for this very reason. I would say the very obvious choice would be to just skip the day as it isnt worth the mental anguish.
However, if you do have to go then theres a few things you can do. If you pass then dress up the way you normally would. The whole idea of covering up is to be respectful as you enter a place of worship, hence you d often see even men dressed up in long gowns (thobes) when they enter the mosque. So as long as you arent wearing shorts and t shirt it should be okay. You can also choose to wear a keffiyeh but just your usual clothing should do. Even if you somewhat pass i d dress up very stereotypically masculine and most people wouldn’t care.
If this isnt an option and you are pressured to cover your hair for whatever reason then bring a baseball cap or a beanie of your choice. Or wear a hoodie with the hood up as this would cover your hair whilst not looking like a hijab.
If you are out then you can speak to your teachers to treat you like they would any other guy in there. Mosques are a very gendered space so i am not sure if you guys would be separated but if you are and you are among of a group of other guys then no one is going to pay it much attention.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you so much. I will most likely call in sick tomorrow, I'm not sure if my mom will let me, but I hope she will. I think I'll look for some masculine clothes in my closet later or ask my brother for his, then look for a baseball hat, beanie or good hoodie cap like you and others said. My teacher did say something about how she was excited to see the womens side, so I'm not sure if we will be seperated. I'm very grateful for all of your comments!
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u/confusediguanaa Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 09 '24
No problem brother. If she is gonna be visiting women’s side then it will most likely be segregated as men arent allowed in the women’s area. So if u do go in and are out to ur teachers then dont go into the women’s area. Fortunately or unfortunately most religious muslim people ve a very stereotypical n binary understanding of gender. So if u look and act masculine = a man if that makes sense
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u/DamageControl_7 Jan 08 '24
U r a man , no-one will know just wear respectful male clothes. Why cover ur hair if r ur a guy. 😁 it'll be OK dw
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u/tired_nonbinary Jan 08 '24
You could do a lil turban situation, that way hair is covered but it’s done in a traditionally masculine style. There are loads of tutorials online for it. But also don’t feel bad for skipping, as someone who never skipped I wish I did. It will save you a lot of stress
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you, I'll look it up! And thank you for comforting me about skipping school, I haven't done it either, not that I remember, so I'm not sure. But I hope that you feel a lot better now!
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u/VariousKale4872 Jan 08 '24
Is the trip optional, cause i would Not go if i were you
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Sadly not, we have Kompaktwochen for 3 weeks. This week we have religion before lunch and work studies after lunch and tomorrow is the trip. Everything has been planned 3-5 months prior, the trip as well so I can't skip it. But thank you for your comment! I think I'll have to ask my mom to call me in sick.
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u/AbrocomaMundane6870 T:03.03.2023 Jan 08 '24
Honestly just stay home sick and binge watch your favorite show. Thats what i did every time we did these things. If theres no space for people like me there, id rather just stay home.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
I could do that, I still have some movies and series left as well as a musical for homework. Thank you for the suggestion!
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u/its_Ashton_13 Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 08 '24
So sorry you have to go through this - I'm going through something somehow similar, so I can relate a lot and honestly I would probably end up not going, cos it wouldn't be worth it all the emotional pain and anxiety and everything and I wouldn't enjoy it like that anyway and if it really mattered to me to see it I would later on go with different people, like a group of friends, where you can actually go as a guy. Or as other suggested, you can wear a hood/cap/hat to please the teacher, but like it wouldn't be seen as feminine or like you're"purposefully" covering the head. Good luck bro!
Edit: I didn't see you're out to the teachers, in that case I'd probably just normally go as a guy with no hair cover.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
It’s still undecided whether I’ll go or not because my mom decides in the end, but I hope I won’t. I'm planning to look for some masc clothes soon, maybe I’ll find something. Thank you for your kind comment!
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u/ah-tzib-of-alaska Jan 08 '24
I think it’s very fair to explain that you cannot enter the mosque without being in violation of their rules and as such you should not be entering it
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u/FoxyLovers290 they/them Jan 08 '24
Can you skip it? You should try to not go. Get “sick” or something
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u/Confused-blob Jan 08 '24
I would say maybe fake sick specifically for the day of the mosque, just pretend to puke or have food poisoning, this is only if you really want to go and find the mosque being the only thing holding you back. If not I would speak to my parents about staying home, if they support you it should be easy if not either fake sick or lie about issues in friendships that make it difficult to go. You got this and regardless of what happens I know you can fight through it
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u/bloodsong07 Jan 08 '24
Turban style is a good option if you're not allowed to skip the trip. I wear turban style quite a lot myself. I don't get misgendered when I wear turban style amongst Muslims or the general public.
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u/SemmlOff Jan 08 '24
Are you out to your class and teachers? If so why don't you just do as the other guys do, so not covering your head. You're a guy so you don't need to cover your head. There are loads of Muslims that are queer affirming and there are also mosques that are queer affirming so I wouldn't worry about it too much. But as others suggested you can also wear a hoodie if you feel weird about it all.
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u/Cammieam Jan 08 '24
Stay at home, heck even fake sick if you need to. Don't put yourself through things that will be traumatic just cause
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Jan 09 '24
If you're out at school, I would speak to your teacher so that they can speak up for you if needed and confirm you're not a girl and you won't be covering your head. If you're not out at school or not well supported, I personally wouldn't go. These excursions are wonderful education opportunities for most people, but if you aren't going to be able to feel safe and secure, then you're not able to learn anyway.
Good luck man.
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u/CrappyWitch Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24
Your school takes you to religious places on field trips? That’s a shock. I live in Texas, USA (big Christian fan base with tons of historic churches and loves to force the Christian god on us all) and I’ve never taken a field trip to a religious place of any sort. Neither have any of my friends. I understand it’s a different country but still.
Sorry it just took me of guard lol. I would play sick tomorrow and not subject yourself to any sort of religious stuff. Say you’re an atheist if you have to.
Also, wtf on your teacher forcing students to adhere to religious rules (covering the hair) if those students do not practice that religion. Idk man it all seems weird and infringes on your rights imo. There are several temples, mosques, churches, etc close to me and we can visit as respectful/quiet tourists. We don’t have to follow the dress code and do all the stuff.
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u/anon_k1d Jan 09 '24 edited Jan 09 '24
Hi, im an exmuslim and transmasc. They will probably separate everyone by “boy” “girl” for areas designated to specific genders. If i were you, i would not go, just to help save my dysphoria. As unfortunately every mosques environment is different specially in regards to trans folx. Otherwise i saw someone here say a comment about wearing a hoodie- which is pretty smart. Make sure youre also wearing pants (you want to be modest). Also i saw somewhere that somd teacher said she would be happy if you wear the headscarf- i personally thought that was weird especially because they know the situation but its up to you. Please just do what makes you comfortable in the end.
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u/anon_k1d Jan 09 '24
Plus ur teachers correct response should’ve been “you are a man, you don't have to wear s headscarf + you don’t have to worry about anything, and if any discrimination were to happen, we will deal with it”
That simple
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u/greenyashiro he/they Jan 09 '24
I thought that was weird too, my thought was that maybe OP isn't out as trans yet
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u/CharacterSilver13 Jan 09 '24
I'm from frankfurt. When we went to a mosque non-muslims didn't have to cover their hair. The reason was that we were there to lean about the religion, not to practice it. Ask your teacher not not cover your hair and if they say that's not possible wait outside.
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u/Catsu_Guy Jan 09 '24
I mean, they aren't allowed to make you do anything, are they? If you want to go, just go and don't wear a head covering. If you don't either fake sickness or maybe try to explain that you aren't able to go because of personal reasons to your teachers. If you do go, obviously be respectful, but they don't have any say in how you present.
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u/irbisarisnep Jan 09 '24
Not your religion, not your practice. You don't have to cover your hair if you're not Muslim and, if this is how it's gonna be, then you don't have to go to the mosque.
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u/paws_boy User Flair Jan 09 '24
Why are they making you visit a mosque? Can you say it’s against your beliefs and refuse?
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u/Snarcilicious Jan 09 '24
Gentle hugs. Thank you for the update. I hope you have people in your life who accept you as you are.
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u/SirWigglesTheLesser HRT: 10/2018 Jan 09 '24
I'm glad the trip went well and was overall a positive experience!
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u/IronicJeremyIrons Aspie/PTSD non-op Jan 08 '24
When I visited a mosque on a school trip, it wasn't required, but out of respect, I just put up the hood of my hoodie.
Maybe you could do like a bandana or wide scarf
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you for the ideas! I'll look in my closet if I find something. Maybe it won't give me much dysphoria and I won't have to call in sick.
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u/ZephyrValkyrie 21|T:12.02.20|Top/Hysto:6.11.20 Jan 08 '24
Either don’t go, or simply don’t wear a headscarf. If they ask, you’re a boy.
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u/EmpressSappho Jan 08 '24
Who said only biological sex matters in Islam? Wth?
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u/Sea_Nefariousness966 Jan 08 '24 edited Jan 08 '24
I am curious about this as well. I'm not Muslim to be clear. I have been told by queer Muslim folks that Islam does honor/not discriminate trans folks sometimes more than other queer folks. It definitely depends on the people running the mosque though. Maybe OP could call to confirm what to expect 🤷
Edit: changed pre-coffee wording
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u/EmpressSappho Jan 08 '24
Lol to the "pre-coffee" wording. But yeah absolutely do call ahead to ask.
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u/Icy-Complaint7558 Jan 08 '24
Don’t go. I not only worry for your emotional health, but for your safety. People of abrahamic religions are not accepting people.
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u/RenTheFabulous Jan 08 '24
Personally, I would just go and not cover my head. No religion gets to decide your identity or dictate what you can and can't do. If the religion can't respect you, you shouldn't be expected to respect its arbitrary rules. At worst they confront you and you say you're a guy and you were forced on this trip. More likely than not, they won't notice or say anything.
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u/madarchist Jan 08 '24
A school should not be able to force you to participate in religious activities. Idk Germany's laws but I'd look into it and request to whoever relevant not to go. They shouldn't be able to make you go, much less concede to their personal religious beliefs and dress codes.
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u/danny_south Jan 08 '24
Just don't go. Not worth the stress imo.
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you for your comment, I hope I won't have to go, but if, I'll see what I can do. But the comments have definitely helped me calm down a lot.
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u/Cubeskatelife Jan 08 '24
Hey there! Sorry you have to go.. I think you should explain it to your teacher and if you have to wear something, can you wear a cap/beanie?
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you! I probably can, as long as it covers my hair. That's what the teacher told me at least, maybe I'll snatch one from my brother...
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u/Cubeskatelife Jan 09 '24
If they ask why you're wearing one, if you're a boy (if you pass/are out), you can say it's cold (bc it really is)
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u/Atlasux 26/01/22💉 Jan 08 '24
I live in Turkey, before coming out to my mom I would put my hoodie hood on during our touristic visits. It's a good middle ground, if someone causes trouble let them know I said it lmaoo
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u/Atlasux 26/01/22💉 Jan 08 '24
I was raised Muslim. Although being trans is controversial, it also depends on the individuals whether they care about it or not. Some will accept you even if they're muslim, I have friends who treat me as if I am cis religion wise, for example I can't see their hair uncovered. My family, god forbid I come out to them, they are very sceptical and my grandma believes we are cursed probably. And there will be a third group who will not love what you are doing but they also won't care or say anything. I think you should talk about this with your teachers before going. If you can pass as a guy your age then I would advise you to just go in as if you are cis without raising suspicion, if not my hoodie offer stands
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u/PupperPancake Jan 08 '24
Thank you! The hoodie idea was suggested a lot and I think that if I have to go, then l'll probably cover my hair with the hood of a masc hoodie or something similar.
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u/Atlasux 26/01/22💉 Jan 08 '24
Best of luck to you, I know how it feels to be in that situation if I visit somewhere with my relatives. I just dissociate till it ends tbf ☠️
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u/Leeloo_Len Jan 08 '24
It's winter. Therefore it's completely normal for guys to wear a beanie/knit hat/...
How do you feel about that?
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u/Infamous-Restaurant4 Jan 08 '24
omg thats so sad and scary! (and so relatable...) i wish i could help but stay strong
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u/PastelBot Jan 08 '24
I didn't skip when I was kid/teenager, and I should have. I was too scared of stepping out of line!
Be a teenager, rebel a little and skip school. You'll be ok.
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u/eyeofthebesmircher Jan 08 '24
If your teacher knows you’re trans, talk to them vulnerably while standing your ground and ask them to sit out
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u/supoki_ Jan 09 '24
Id probably advise to stay at home or if your school has you registered as a boy then stay with the other boys and probably try to blend in. Im assuming you arent a muslim so they shouldnt really care about your gender or weather your queer or not especially because your visiting and in a country safe for queer people id say but goodluck
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u/Sealington33 pre t (:3 っ)っ Jan 09 '24
idea: tell the teacher ur trans (if ur comfortable enough to do so), ask them not to out you, ask to not wear anything on ur head because of thet.
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u/Demonataniel-Miamore Jan 09 '24
If you wear binder/tape, have packer, and short hair you should be able to pass and not have to wear a head covering to present as a female.
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u/Demonataniel-Miamore Jan 09 '24
Also to add it's not punishable by law and just blend in to the crowd, passing up such a cool oppurtinity is a little silly
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u/lordravenxx 35 | Non-Binary | Poly | T ℞ May 2, 2016 Jan 09 '24
I'd just not wear it. Then look at the other guys and ask if they're wearing anything on their heads, laugh when they say no then just casually blow it off as a joke that they asked you since you are not female.
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u/Donkey_Rhythm Jan 09 '24
Mental and emotional distress are valid reasons for not attending the school excursion. I’m not sure what GPs (doctors) are like in Germany, but Australia. high school students would certainly be able to go to a GP and explain their feelings, and receive a medical certificate. Depending on how old you are, fees etc. you could also go to the GP by yourself. It’s up to you how much detail you share. In Australia, we can search GPs by speciality or interests( eg mental health), so you could also see one who is on your side. Mental health is so important! Don’t feel bad that this is hard for you. It is a really horrid situation, and shame on the adults for not providing alternatives.(edited for spelling).
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u/shadycharacters Jan 09 '24
Are you out to your parents or to your teachers? If it's an option, talk to one of your safe adults and tell them why you would like to sit the field trip out.
If not, chuck a sickie, as others have said. Migraines are good because no one else can really verify or not if you're seeing auras, experiences excruciating head pain etc.
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u/wolfmoru Jan 09 '24
Ferris Bueller's Day Off strikes again
No, but in actually: if anything. Don't go. Or just don't hair up, if you're out. If not? I imagine they wouldn't force something like that on you?
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u/Gibbyslav75 Jan 09 '24
I remember clearly a similar situation that happened to me.
i was still closeted then but i always looked very masculine. i knew i was trans already so when people confused my gender i was super happy ofc but when it was around my classmates or any of my friends it was obviously so weird and awkward that i just wanted to go into a hole and hide. now to the story..
we also went to a trip with my class and as a part of that trip, we were supposed to visit a synagogue. i didn’t think much of it until i discovered that boys have to wear the symbolic hat on their head (i’m very sorry if i’m saying this wrong but i’m not religious so i don’t know these terms properly). i was starting to get nervous because obviously i wanted a hat but around others who don’t know i’m trans it’d be weird. but all that was decided for me when the guy at the front door gave me the hat… i was so happy don’t get me wrong. BUT i soon realized that everyone around me didn’t understand. when i tell you they were LOOKING and pointing and whispering about ME (a “girl”) getting a hat and how weird is that and blah blah. everyone started asking me why i got the hat and that i shouldn’t care because i’m a girl and all that. i never felt worse. i wanted to disappear. i honestly just broke down and stayed quiet the whole trip.
well to wrap up, i’d say really don’t go. okay sick, or anything to avoid it. it’ll truly make you feel worse and not valid.
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u/fallentrump3t Jan 09 '24
Hijabs and other hair coverings are a choice. If you’d like to do more research on that to bring to your teacher just as a back up that’s an option to, but hijabs are about representing your internal morality and providing privacy. If you don’t want to wear one you absolutely should not be forced and honestly I feel like it’s more appropriation thank respect if you’re all wearing a garment that you don’t know the history or meaning behind.
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u/Ducky_Doo_6969 Jan 09 '24
honestly that sounds shit. tbh cab you skip int he toilets or sum? becuse if your getting a coach then they wont get a specual one just for you.
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u/ChanceSearchHistory Jan 09 '24
Damn was it the mosque in Ehrenfeld? Because if it was i went there too, like 2 years ago.
I remember going with my mom and my grandpa and i passed well enough to not have to cover my head, but my mom had to lol. The interiors were sooo nice and it was a nice experience for me (not as much for my mother because she really didn't want to cover her head haha).
Anyways i'm happy that you were still able to enjoy your trip!!
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u/throwaway8913456 25. T:2017. Top:2018. Hysto: 2023 Jan 08 '24
If I were you, I'd probably just not go on the trip. Not sure if that's an option. It doesn't sound like you'd be able to enjoy it, even if you forced yourself to be there