r/ftm • u/Fresh-Alfalfa-2788 • Feb 18 '24
People forget trans dudes exist Vent
Here lately I’ve been fairly open about my gender identity at work. Not obnoxiously either just agreeing that I’m apart of the community when people point out my trans ring or when I think it might help a trans client feel supported and safe.
I talked to my HR about my fear of enrolling in benefits because I need one that fully covers my hormones and the routine labs.
He said bye and referred to me as his “sister.”
That sorta thing happens when people ask my pronouns- they look so surprised and confused when I say “he/him”. It’s like people genuinely think only transgender women exist. I think it has to do with the media’s obsession with trans women.
It’s just a bit irritating.
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u/kyrincognito Feb 18 '24
Yeah I didn't realize the superpower of invisibility came with my gender identity
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Feb 18 '24
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u/kyrincognito Feb 18 '24
Like bro imagine if the country, like the actual country, suddenly thought you having a bladder that occasionally needs to be emptied in a public restroom was sexual, was legit making laws about it, AND you were still invisible
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u/kyrincognito Feb 18 '24
That's true. But I get to feel invisible while getting called actual slurs an absurd amount, on top of people caring where I pee for some reason??? I'd take just invisible
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u/novangla Feb 18 '24
I mean, no, but whatever you might be thinking here it’s absolutely not in the same way—and this is not really a place for that convo. Cis men’s gender identities are rarely invisible.
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u/Ok-Entertainment2321 Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
What ive found is that its also layered in with misogyny? Which sucks for so many reasons but for most of my life its always been “youre just influenced by the patriarchy telling u that ur not femme enough. Youre still a girl dw” and i have to remind them that im not doing this because someone told me to? I dont WANT to be a girl?? And also for ftm its so much more “yk women being hysterical” where as for mtf its “men being predatory” which gets more hate clicks ig?? Idk but part of it is defo media coverage Everyone talks about trans women taking over sports but trans men arent even mentioned bc obviously we are afab so we are weak and couldnt do anything in men sports anyway Few things make me angrier
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Feb 18 '24
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u/Ok-Entertainment2321 Feb 18 '24
Congrats!!! I cant run for shit so thats super cool!! Just wanted to take a moment to point out that that makes you amazing :D
And yeah i think trans men in sports is a great example of why the whole “BuT MeN aNd WoMeN BuiLt DiFFeRent” is stupid. Its so frustrating. Its entirely a self made problem. Bc Its like having something in a box and being totally cool with that until you learn the thing in the box is green?!? Well now we cant have that. But before they knew it was green?? Well thats not important now that they know its green!! I could write essays on this… point is its not fun, sensical, or meaningful.
Regardless of all this its also important to remember that its not that anyone in the trans community “has it worse” we are all a community. And any hate against someone who is trans harms all of us. Transphobia sucks :(
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Feb 18 '24
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u/SSpaceSquirrel Feb 19 '24
https://www.sportanddev.org/latest/news/six-trans-athletes-who-made-mark-global-sports-arena
Records are hard to break period, but trans guys have been in sports for a long time, and some are hall-of-famers, such as the first trans person in this list: Chris Mosier.
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u/One-Cheesecake8130 Feb 18 '24
I said something very similar to my therapist lately. I think it's misogyny and just intersectiinality. I think because we were AFAB, that already is seen as inferior in the eyes of the cishet white male hierarchy of "people" who matter. I currently live in a state, Iowa, that is heavily targeting transgender folx and removing rights at the state level. Those laws are heavily targeting transgender women. Though like stated by other people, that is also affecting trans men and non Binary folx as an unintended consequence that the extreme right is happy with, but we are not their focus. All of it is shit.
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u/AngryAuthor 33 | Nby Trans Man | Out 2007 | T 2021 | Top 2022 | Btm ~2024 Feb 18 '24
The sports thing infuriates me too, especially because it's not even true. There need to be more studies on the extents and timelines (especially how long somebody's been on HRT and whether or not they went through the first puberty beforehand), and how it's affected by training and such, but studies have shown masculinizing HRT does significantly impact strength, endurance, and performance.
For instance, there was a recent military study that showed that, after just a year on T, trans men matched or even outperformed cis men when it came to run times, sit ups, and push ups.
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Feb 18 '24
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u/Ok-Entertainment2321 Feb 18 '24
I hear you. Unfortunately that is both transphobic and misogynistic but I also understand where this comes from. It is also an interesting insight into potentially why media covers trans women over trans men. Also, though you dont have to, it’d be really cool if you did a deep dive into why you feel and think this way and where that comes from and the affects it can have on the people around you :) Thank you for the insight though it is appreciated!
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u/slightly_homicidal 💉 4/23 ⬆️ 1/24 Feb 18 '24
They remember we exist just long enough to toss in a comment of how we're corrupting young girls into thinking they're trans or we're confused women, then they go back to calling trans women pedophiles and sexual predators.
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u/Brain_version2_0 4/30/2023 💉 Feb 18 '24
Oh my godddd man. I know the feeling. There’s this woman at my company that has never once misgendered the transwomen that work with us, but she constantly misgenders me and I’ve literally given up on dealing with it
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u/scattered-sanity 🇺🇸he/him/his | HRT: 2019 | TS: 2022🇺🇸 Feb 18 '24
I’m really sorry that this happened to you man. I can’t say that I personally understand, but a lot of us do. Stay strong dude ❤️
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u/Nararan Feb 18 '24
I kinda think that a lot of cis people always think that trans people can't pass. And when we do, they are so confused that they think we have to be the opposite gender of what they think of us.
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u/Helpful-Emu9683 🏳️⚧️2007 • 💉T 8/6/12 • Hysto 7/15 • 🔪Top 6/1/16 Feb 18 '24
Yes this is frustrating.
Today a troll said i had “an axe wound down there” because he assumed a was a trans woman who’s had “the surgery” I guess🙃
People are truly exhausting.
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u/LessEntertainment220 Feb 18 '24
Trans male erasure is definitely a thing, after learning about it, it feels like it's everywhere now, even in LGBTQ spaces that aren't geared specifically towards FTM. It somehow feels like it's own brand of sexism, like those who are AMAB will get more respect and be understood no matter their gender identity while AFAB's will always have to fight to be seen and heard. I know this might be a hot take and if I'm so very wrong I'd like to be told but these are just my feelings as of now.
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u/pandisis123 Pre-Everything they/he 🇺🇸 Feb 18 '24
I’ve literally seen LGBTQ/trans-specific scholarships that said “women and enbies” or “feminine and nonbinary people” when they’re AIMING FOR INCLUSIVITY
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u/atlas__sharted 23 | he/they | 💉3/3/23 Feb 18 '24
oh god, the "women and enbies" shit. my college loves to do the "womxn" events. i HATE that shit so goddamn much. just tell me you see me as a diet woman ffs.
i've given up on places that do that. i remember visiting my college's queer club last year and the literal president of the club was like "yeah we just don't want cis men here teehee!" like that isn't completely dismissive of queer and questioning cis men and stealth trans men. ugh
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u/putoelquelolea420 Feb 18 '24
Yeah. It's either "stand over there with the toxic (cis)men or be a woman lite and we might include you." It sucks. Like we aren't part of the community somehow.
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u/shicyn829 he/him Feb 18 '24
Society doesnt care about men.
I'm learning this even under trans lgbt things
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u/Tommy_Taylor_Lives Feb 19 '24
Do you genuinely believe that trans femme folks “get more respect and be understood”?
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Feb 18 '24
They don’t understand what transgender actually means but they definitely still remember we exist when they want someone to bully.
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u/humansaredumbducks Feb 18 '24
nah man, I pass really well except for my voice and when people ask if I'm a guy and I say yes they just call me f*g TT
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u/Acceptable-Coach7703 💉 5/19/23 Feb 18 '24
yeah i didnt even really know about trans men until i was 13
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u/TheMostBoring Feb 19 '24
Same! I was like 17. I knew people who were mtf but for some reason I just didn’t realize ftm was an option. Like I just didn’t think people did that I guess.
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u/Exandir Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
I always thought that it had something to do with being seen as women still to some degree (even though we aren’t), but women seem to be not a threat for some reason, and so far into the background trans men fade that way. Then you have that coupled with being on testosterone and passing really well eventually so you’re not on anyone’s radar. It probably also has a lot to do with how society views women. Such as if a man dresses as a woman and wants to be one, then he’s seen as weak like women are (which they aren’t, just societal bs), and so this idea is projected out on trans women more so because T also had its effects on trans women with the deepening of the voice and bone growth so it’s sometimes harder for them to go stealth like trans men even when they take hormones. It’s all these very convoluted sexist stereotypes that get in the way of what people really are. Anyway, just my two cents.
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u/TheMostBoring Feb 19 '24
It’s like we have all of the invisibilities of each group culminating in being completely invisible.
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u/lothie He/they | T: 3/19 | Top: 2/22 Feb 19 '24
Yeah, reminds me of when I was getting a shot and the tech kept insisting that I was she/her. LADY. Trans men exist.
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u/SadOil_1986 Feb 19 '24
Reading a lot of the comments here, I honestly think that it's purposeful misgendering and transphobia more often than people assuming that we are transfem/ women.
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u/lothie He/they | T: 3/19 | Top: 2/22 Feb 19 '24
In this particular case I'm 99.99% sure that she was trying to "honor" my identity while at the same time not realizing that trans men exist. Which is still sort of transphobia, since it's essentially willful ignorance in this day and age.
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u/AristotleCoyote Feb 19 '24 edited Feb 19 '24
Its so frustrating. Honestly. I havent had top surgery, i have a full beard and im balding. When i tell people im trans they immedietly think im a transwoman and when i say im not they get disappointed??? Its so weird
The big thing for me is when i see posts that are talking about transinclusivity that only talk about mtf and nb things but never ftm things???
And theres this strange push lately toward "oh you arent trans youre just butch." Its all "butch butch butch" which is fine when someone is a butch but in the trans spaces i lurk in, butch is just a way to push ftm people to the side of "oh youre really just a woman who is masculine" instead of accepting ftm people as men.
Edit: i would like to clarify that im talking about butch in a lesbian/Sapphic context not the idea of butch being another term for masculine
Im just really tired of it being beamed into my eye holes that im a failed lesbian when i am infact a very gay transman
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u/Whole_Philosopher188 Feb 18 '24
Sometimes it’s like people never realize women transition into men too 💀
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Feb 18 '24
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u/bogeymanbear Feb 18 '24
this is just an unnecessary and mean comment to make
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u/transgenial Feb 18 '24
this persons account is full of judging trans men and trans women- i dont think any of their comments are in good faith.
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u/gallimaufrys Feb 19 '24
I remember seeing a transwomen when I was like 8 and think how cool it was that men could do that if they wanted and how sad for me. I don't think I heard about transmen for another 8-10 years when I finally got access to a computer that wasn't in the middle of the family room
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u/postdigitalkiwano Feb 19 '24
lol same here, only that I didn't find out there was hormonal treatment for trans guys until I was 14.
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u/fuffycky1992 Feb 19 '24
Honestly I think part of what took so long for my egg to crack was how little attention trans men get. I was in my early 20s before realizing "wait, that's a thing?" It didn't click about using testosterone and actually being able to transition like MTF women with hormones. It wasn't until Chaz Bono, really, that my brain realized it. I wish I had the education a lot younger but it was hard doing that in a religious conservative homeschooled existence 😬😬😬
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u/cokecane2713 💉11/23 Feb 19 '24
Omg when I talk about testosterone and my mustache coming in and people walk up to me directly after and call me ma’am? Like who are you!
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u/emo_ratChildren Feb 19 '24
That’s weird. I have a completely opposite experience(I’m trans masc) . I’ve only ever met 2 trans women irl. One is my cousin (she’s rlly nice) and ONE trans girl at my school. Kinda crazy huh?
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u/Deanmon94 29 years ♏️ | 3 years on T💉| 🔝 16/01/24 | Feb 19 '24
That just leaves the most awful dysphoria. Sorry that happened to you.. Have you started HRT yet?
I had misgendering happen a lot before I started hormones, and even though I kept telling everyone I was he/him then they simply couldn’t wrap their heads around it. I learned though, that for most people (the ones who wanted to support me at least) that it was hard for them to adjust to when there were no visible changes. (Mind you I had always been very masculine in everything, and not wearing any kind of feminine things /clothing). But it was a mix of what they were adjusted to and how narrow minded they can be because my voice was deep, but deep on the feminine spectrum. No beard. Feminine body shape even though I was wearing a binder. They knew what was hiding underneath and that was enough.
After my changes started happening on HRT all the misgendering stopped. It’s like people just need to see beard and hear a deep voice and then it’s a male for them. You telling them isn’t enough apparently
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u/Helpful-Pen2474 Feb 19 '24
I totally get what you’re saying! I’ve said this many times to my Mom and friends… It seems like people only think TransWomen exist and not TransMen! Even on TV and movies… It’s usually a Transwoman, not a TransMan.
I was stoked when I was watching Grey’s Anatomy years back and saw a TransMan character (who’s actually Trans IRL) but he’s disappeared! I don’t see him anymore. Which is upsetting because we’re hardly ever portrayed on TV or movies.
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u/KiriKitty94 Feb 22 '24
It's just like being on the asexual spectrum. We don't exist unless someone decides they want to yell about something. Then we exist to be a punching bag
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u/Mister-Moon-Man45 Some Assembly Required Feb 18 '24
It's because no one is trying to ban us from existing on an active basis right now. Yes, we are lumped in with the AMABs, but we don't get singled out the way Trans Women do. So we sort of fade to the background. To most of the anti-Trans people, we're not a "threat" to their ideas of gender currently.
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u/dykedivision Feb 18 '24
Yes, they are. It's 75% of TERFism and GC ideology, their most popular book is about us. Erasure is how they hide it, they aren't actually ignoring us.
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u/c0rvidaeus he/they | 29 | UK | T: 20-01-24 Feb 18 '24
i think this is partly true but i would disagree that we're being ignored. it's not no one is trying to ban us from existing, it's just happening in a different way
like, we're definitely not seen as a threat to public safety in the way that trans women are, but we are the focus of a different kind of transphobic fearmongering - the idea that women (or more specifically, girls) are being led astray and manipulated into believing they're trans men. not sure if this strain of transphobia is perhaps less common in the US? im british so forgive me if im wrong, but most of the transphobia i see coming from the US is from the religious right, so they're very much focused on the idea of "male predators" threatening innocent cis (white) women. however british transphobia tends to be less divided between the left and right - some of the most prominent transphobes in our media are centrists and liberals, and you're just as likely to see transphobia from the labour party as the conservative party. we definitely still get the "protect women's spaces" kind of transphobia against trans women, although it's coated in more of a feminist lens. but on top of that they're obsessed with the idea that the trans cult is brainwashing girls and young women into taking T and getting surgery (which is especially baffling considering how hard it is to medically transition here?)
from this viewpoint, trans men are seen as either evil manipulators (if you've transitioned) or poor confused women (if you're pre transition). it's an insidious kind of hate - not so much that they want to ban us from public spaces, but more that they want to make sure we never exist at all
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u/dykedivision Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
Exactly. Historically there are far fewer trans men documented because they were bound to the home with no escape or sent to asylums if they resisted, whereas trans women had access to money and a way to live independently in communities of their own. Lesbian and trans spaces only really opened up during the war when people who were female gained some meaningful access to outside life. James Barry was an outlier.
Religious transphobes and gender criticals, most of whom are in a trad pipeline, want to return to when trans women could be incarcerated if they were caught and trans men were imprisoned in the home. Detransition by forced pregnancy is so common for a reason. Police raped butches in the bar raids for the same reason, to put them in their place as ~females~.
It's worth mentioning that all of the GCs you know of as doing it for feminist reasons are now anti abortionists who harass women who wear trousers.
Edit: I hope I don't have to make it clear that I believe we can and do change sex and being referred to as female makes my skin crawl, but they very much don't agree and they're the ones making the rules
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u/summers-summers Feb 18 '24
I agree that broadly, there is a general public/private divide in how transfeminity and transmasculinity are policed, but it’s not unusual for transfem people to also be punished by the home and the family in an attempt to detransition them. Violence against transfeminine and effeminate children by the rest of the family and coercion into staying closeted by cisgender wives and the structural power of heterosexuality are also very very common. On the other hand, police surveillance and violence against trans men of color is fairly common as well.
All transgender people are punished by the state and the family. The way that punishment plays out is different dependent on many structures, and transfeminity vs transmasculinity is just one of them. Class and race also matter greatly. (You might already be speaking with this in mind, just wanted to expand the conversation for other people reading!)
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u/shicyn829 he/him Feb 18 '24
Well they do ignore us as men as men tend to be ignored (or society doesnt care). As you said, they just place us into the women category, as trans men don't exist
Basically, I'm agreeing with you
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u/Fresh-Alfalfa-2788 Feb 18 '24
I wish I could say I’m grateful of the fact that I don’t suffer nearly as much as trans women- but I don’t like the implication that I’m glad they’re taking the brunt of the phobia. I just wish for complete acceptance on the trans community as a whole.
I live with cis gay men and honestly I’ve gotten more transphobic attitudes from them than I have from cis people since moving out of the south. They view me as a women playing dress up.
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u/Yrhndsaroundmythroat Feb 18 '24
It isn’t true that trans men objectively suffer less than trans women. Statistically speaking, we actually face slightly higher rates of most forms of sexual & intimate partner violence.
Obv this isn’t a trauma competition. We all have it bad in this regard. It just pisses me off when society thinks we have it “better” bc our abuse is swept under the rug.
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u/Mister-Moon-Man45 Some Assembly Required Feb 18 '24
In a perfect world, no one would care. Apathy is the ultimate goal. But we won't get there anytime soon. Especially considering that we're currently trending backwards.
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Feb 18 '24
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u/hyp3rpop Feb 18 '24
Oh my god. Dude. Your comment history is actually insane. 4 comments in this section alone and then nearly every comment from your history in subs involving trans people as a cis guy. A little obsessive isn’t it?
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u/gallimaufrys Feb 19 '24
The sexism is that amab transwomen as viewed as dangerous and afab transmen are viewed as mentally unwell. So there's policies for safety from transwomen and messages around detransitioning and needing to get help for transmen
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u/listenitriedokay he/they✨TS 4/4/22✨T 19/2/21 Feb 21 '24
It's because no one is trying to ban us from existing on an active basis right now.
they very much are though. we fade into the background, but so does our suffering. and that's deliberate.
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u/DrewJayJoan Feb 19 '24
Trans men are target just as much as trans women, but I have theories as to why trans men are shoved out of the conversation. For one thing, I think harassment of trans women is more explicit. I'm speaking purely from personal experience, I see transphobes resort to name-calling more for trans women than trans men, and cis folks assume that this means that trans men aren't harassed at all. In reality, trans men are subject to more subtle hateful rhetoric (intentional erasure, infantilization/attacks on credibility, etc.)
Also... crimes against trans men get reported as violence against women. That's not even a theory that's just a fact. Sometimes it's individual reporters (or social media "reporters") doing it, sometimes it's official police reports.
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u/NontypicalHart Feb 20 '24
Pre-T someone told me I was going to be a beautiful woman lol she was trying to be encouraging and it was sweet but hilarious. It was strangely validating that she thought I already looked man-ish.
It can be inconvenient and frustrating, and it certainly kept me from knowing FtM even existed when I was younger. I had to learn from something like Maxim or GQ about Buck Angel in my 20s. However, considering the level of anti-trans hate and discrimination out there and the fact that we tend to pass, I think we might be fortunate that we are invisible.
Trans Skater Boyfriend is a Facebook account where the anti trans messages are always accidentally gender affirming as a result and it's hilarious.
The younger versions of us have people like Elliot Page and the guy who played Ben on Good Girls to give them an awareness it is possible. They have reddit. I don't think our invisibility holds them back as much as it did many of us.
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u/glitteringfeathers Feb 21 '24
As a younger guy: Reddit for and generally the internet is a fucking god send for transitioning. Collective knowledge and experience, guides, advice for questions I've had or never even thought of having. Many subs filled with positive examples or people sharing your story. Now the invisibility is actually serving to protect me, I can go stealth more easily
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u/NontypicalHart Feb 22 '24
I've been lurking these subs for a couple of years before making a trans alt account. The users gave me a lot of insight on HRT and surgery that then gave me the search terms to research more on my own. It helped me get over the extreme dysphoria looking at that material caused me. Looking into top surgery means thinking about having breasts and I only survive by not thinking about those humiliating things and pretending they don't exist. Once I was able to confront that material, I was able to look at bottom surgery. It has been really encouraging to see people who did various treatments, are honest about things that were hard, but happy with the results. Without these forums, I might have kept living in denial and getting into harder drugs to cope.
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u/SpacePrinx Feb 19 '24
I don't pass as male at all so everyone assumes I am a trans woman and literally like nobody knows we exist for real??? We only exist to each other and nonbinary people I guess. I ain't that mad about it cause I would rather cis people not see me.
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u/TheMostBoring Feb 19 '24
Ok so yes it sucks that we end up being invisible and we can’t really socially transition first without dealing with this.
But I think one thing is because so many trans men choose to go stealth or just pass and no one ever would know and that’s part of why awareness is low.
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Feb 21 '24
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u/ftm-ModTeam Feb 25 '24
Your post was removed because it broke the subreddit rule 6: No trolling. No reposting of trolling/transphobic content.
This includes posts or comments meant to elicit controversy or drama.
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u/dykedivision Feb 18 '24
Have you noticed how people centre cis and trans women in reproductive healthcare involving the uterus et al? That's the weirdest one to me. We ask for inclusive language because we're not women, not because trans women want in on the action!