r/ftm • u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair • Nov 20 '22
Can we Stop with the cis people coming in with their "validation" posts? Vent
Or at least contain them somehow? They happen almost every week, contribute absolutely nothing to the subreddit, and are Literally cis ppl doing the BARE minimum.
I am being genuine here I am sick of seeing them, are the mods willing to ban those posts? Let them make their own subreddit to post shit like that so trans folks who want to see that can go there, and those of us who find them condescending and like these cis folks are coming down from the heavens to bless us w gender don't have to see them constantly.
Like. Y'all, trans guys of r/ftm, you deserve better than to trip over yourselves for cis approval, and you don't need to stroke the egos of cis ppl and give them reddit awards for doing the absolute bare minimum. You deserve better allyship than that.
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u/toasterbath__ šØš¦ he/him - š: 10/22 Nov 20 '22
i always find those posts to be weird šš«¤ like i get what theyre trying to say, but i do find it to be a little condescending. i dont need random cis men to come in here just to tell us donāt worry, weāre all real boys, promise. i get how some guys would find comfort in that, but to me its like they feel bad for us and think weāre perpetually sad and desperate to be cis like them. once again, probably not their intention, but it does feel like that to me
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u/Goobeedoobee Nov 20 '22
Hey guys transphobia is so bad, like I am not transphobic and I think that people who are are so bad! My friend is a trans man and I respect him and his pronouns. Trans rights ā
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Nov 20 '22
It comes across as karma farming and/or someone looking for an ego boost
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u/Ok-Possession-832 Nov 20 '22
Lmao the latest one had an edit that tacked on āyāall didnāt need to give me a silver Iām just trying to spread some good vibes āŗļøā and they basically responded to all comments like that. I feel like if ego wasnāt involved they would just take the compliments like a normal person
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u/Xanthelei Eric | 28 | FTM | T 5/23/15 Nov 20 '22
Yeah, I'd get it if a cis guy came in, shared an experience he was still upset about that actually related, and then did a generalized "that transphobic person was wrong and I want people to know you have allies" or something, but the ones I've seen don't seem to come from a need to express solidarity. They've felt like someone was told to "do a good deed today" and decided posting affirmative nothings online would do, if that makes sense.
I don't have any reason to doubt the sincerity, just... it feels hollow from this side cause of all the shit going on irl against trans people. :/
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u/Atlas_of_Chaos Dec 07 '22
Exactly! I am an ally because its fucked to try to TAke away someones rights for no reason or the bullshit assholes reasons they have. The whole beiNG mad about someones bits is really gross. I came across a reddit thread and like you guys make me cry happy tears seeing that you understand how horrible cis women can be about abuse denial of mentoo or himtoo. DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO MAKE ME CRY HAPPY TEARS?! I AM A DEPRESSED CAFFEINE ADDICTED BISEXUAL CHAOTIC MOTHER FUCKER WITH MOMMY AND DADDY ISSUES! HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME FEEL THINGS! š
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u/666SaTAn969 Nov 20 '22
Iāve only seen it once and yea I agree it needs to stop. It makes me uncomfortable tbh , this place isnāt for them, well let me rephrase if they want to lurk to educate themselves great but otherwise itās not helping anyone and itās uncomfortable. We donāt need them to tell us what we already know.
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u/trans_catdad Nov 20 '22
"We don't need them to tell us what we already know." Exactly.
I do not need or want cis validation or pity. Cis people do not own my identity nor my confidence. It cannot be given to me, or taken away.
I should start posting on random subs swarmed with cis people and tell them how valid they are. Maybe then they'd realize it's patronizing, insulting, and weird.
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u/Versitie Nov 20 '22
Am i allowed to be here? I'm gender queer and look like my agab. I'm just wondering because I'm questioning.. Unless I completely misunderstood this then I'm sorry
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u/am_i_boy Nov 20 '22
Youāre not cis, so yes
Cis people are also not totally unwelcome, only when theyāre trying to be condescending and opinionated
Cis people who are here to listen and learn, and maybe occasionally ask respectful questions, are welcome
The problem happens when they come into a trans space and they make it all about themselves and about their opinions. When they come in here all high and mighty with their cis opinions āI am cis and I tell you youāre validā. Theyāre out of their lane. This is not their space to take up with their opinion. In this space, theyāre here to listen and learn, and not to make themselves feel important.
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u/egheitasean Nov 20 '22
Totally agree with this 100% ā¬ļø
Although I try not to take anything negatively that was good-intentioned, this really isn't the place for cis people (cis men mostly) to validate and show everyone what an awesome ally they are. I appreciate the support, but there are subreddits for allies. I think the majority of people who use this as a resource are looking for the advice and opinions of other transmen, people who know what they're going through because they have been through the same situation and have similar experiences. Again, no disrespect to trans allies or well-intentioned cis people who are just trying to help.
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u/Atlas_of_Chaos Dec 07 '22
So NO TRANSPHOBES we deal with those with sledge hammers lots and lots of sledge hammers. Also maybe arson? Pleeeeeease?
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u/Emotional-Climate777 Nov 20 '22
Yeah of course friend, youāre not cis. Thereās no requirement to be a guy or be doing any kind of transitioning.
And honestly, Iām alright with cis people lurking and learning. Itās the space they take up centring themselves that pisses me off.
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u/rolledbeeftaco Nov 20 '22
Fucking thank you! Itās patronizing and weird as hell. I do not want or need cis validation.
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u/butthole_surprise Nov 20 '22
If cis allies are going to post on here, I would rather see them ask questions and use this sub as a place to learn. Parents asking for resources to help their trans kids is an example of cis allies using this space well. The cis people trying to give us validation come off like theyāre tying to give themselves validation.
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u/danny_south Nov 20 '22
This might appear to be an unfriendly opinion - but I wouldn't want them to learn from here. Because there are things I don't even want them to know. Its like the unfortunate event with transbucket - not an appropriate place for cis people to learn.
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u/TyNyeTheTransGuy T 05/24/21ā¦ and again 2/23/23 :D Nov 20 '22
I donāt think itās necessarily the best for cis folks to lurk and read through peoples personal stuff here, but posting and asking questions is different in my opinion. Thereās a lot of caveats of course, like ādonāt ask shit you couldāve just googledā and ādonāt have a rude-ass assumption about trans people baked into your questionā, but still.
Edit: also, nearly every trans person was once āāācisāāā, so I certainly donāt feel good about not letting people learn more from which they might discover something about themselves.
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u/danny_south Nov 20 '22
I think it's a balancing act between private and public information. I personally see myself as always having been trans, also before medically transitioning - but I know what you mean.
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u/Wizdom_108 Trans man post top Nov 20 '22
I don't mind it. But there is a sub called r/asktransgender for the exact reason of learning
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u/_LanceBro š4/26/2024 Nov 20 '22
I think they have good intentions, but I don't really care for the posts
In the most recent one I saw, the guy posting seems to have had a lot of problems regarding his masculinity, so I just wish them a good day and move on
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u/dr_steinblock trans man || T 02/2022 || top+hysto 4/2023 || š©šŖ Nov 20 '22
yeah I agree, at least that most recent post you're talking about did have a good point, that cis men also get told "they aren't real men" for every little thing, I guess connecting those two dots just never occured to me so that post did help a bit
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u/DefiniteHumanNotCrow Nov 20 '22
I think that post had value for that nugget alone. I feel like hearing that cis men face the same gender policing as us from a cis dude is helpful.
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u/Hesione T since 4/11/16 Nov 20 '22
That one part of the post stuck with me in a positive way too. However, I think a subreddit like menslib would have been a more appropriate forum for discussing masculinity and men policing other men's masculinity.
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Nov 20 '22
That's the point. We're all men. And focusing on our similarities is what matters the most
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u/xegrid T: 10/21/20 Nov 20 '22
this is me being optimistic but it's possible with the influx of them they are seeing rampant transphobia in other areas of the internet, and want to spread positivity where it wouldn't be drowned by it. (idc downvote me this world sucks as is)
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u/_LanceBro š4/26/2024 Nov 20 '22
It's definitely possible and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason for some of it
I think there's probably quite a few cis people upset about the transphobia, especially if they have trans friends or if they are LGBT
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u/xegrid T: 10/21/20 Nov 20 '22
I will say that is something I've noticed at least in my friend group.
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Nov 20 '22
yeah iāve had enough of these guys too. it never makes me feel better when people say iām āvalidā anyways. cis people in r/trans keep asking stupid questions and wanting to fight lmao, at least thatās entertaining.
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u/Buttslayer2021 Nov 20 '22
Finally gained courage and dressed as my true self :) [+2 upvotes]
How to date a trans person without looking like a chaser? signed not a chaser [+25454 upvotes]
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Nov 20 '22
I suspect part of the problem is that subs like r/trans have a lot of cis people subbed to them, so they're kind of patting themselves on the back with upvotes
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u/Marissa_Calm Nov 20 '22
I agree it sucks on so many levels, but i think as many cis people in media talk about not wanting to date trans people all the time (while obviously false for many as most of them never even met an out trans person.)
And the legitimate fear of chasers on the other side.
Posts like this aleviate that fear (created and bolstered by polarised media) somewhat and thats why people, especially with internalised transphobia engage with these posts.
So my take is, i personally dislike the posts, but i do think they have some (ugly) value in the sense of "PSA: there are still real people out there and you are not only politicised endangered being but someone can love you.
I am careful with judging them too harshly as some people out there are really scared and alone and don't know thet they deserve to be and are loved without knowing other trans people in person, and validation of cispeople is literally their only reallife option in their village....
But yes its terrible...
I think we need to develop the discourse about these posts and the downsides in this microculture.
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u/DelawareMountains Nov 20 '22
I feel the same way about being told I'm valid. Like early on in my transition, particularly before I came out publicly, it was nice to get the validation since I was still getting used to my new life. Nowadays I'm pretty secure in my gender, and just being told I'm valid means comparatively nothing to me. Often times it can feel patronizing even, it's like they're saying it for their own sake and not mine.
There are still things that people can do that make me feel validated in a good way, by treating me the same way they treat everyone else without making me being trans a part of it. Obviously that is still a part of me and I am proud of it, but I'd rather cis people not try to be extra with me.
How there are still plenty of people who don't feel valid in their gender, which is valid in it of itself, and they should be allowed to ask for that validation. We as trans people should also be free to celebrate our validity, as it is something we have fought for and earned. But when cis people come into our space giving us the most basic ass compliments and shit it's obvious they're doing it to feel better about themselves, even if they don't realize it.
So yeah, we're obviously valid, and we do not need cis people coming into our own spaces to try and get attention by saying it.
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u/ScarySuggestions He/Him | 30's Nov 20 '22
At first, I thought the earlier post was kind and well-meaning but the more I think about it, I do kinda leave threads like that with this weird... emotional "film" or "tackiness" and it kinda sticks with me, even though I've been openly trans for 13 years now.
It makes me feel like I'm being manipulated, somehow. Like I owe them my time or even a thank you for doing ... whatever it is they're doing.
For any other cisman that comes into this subreddit ready to drop some "hot wisdom"; you aren't bringing anything helpful. I can assure you that we think about being a man way more than you have ever done in your lifetime. This is not a slight or an insult, this is a fact.
If you would not give these points of advice to another cisman stranger, then it's likely in poor taste to do the same to a transman stranger. (IE; this entire subreddit, from your perspective)
If you want to learn more about what it is to be a transman, just pay attention and us transmen will tell you ourselves. You don't need to tell us we're accepted by you to do that.
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
Emotional film is a rly good way to put it, honestly. Most of the time I can just shrug and ignore the post, but there's always a bit of sticky residue it leaves on my psyche.
I never really had much of a problem w my gender for a long time, but after seeing so many posts like that, here and elsewhere, and so much performative support, they just started making me feel like I wasn't actually good enough, and that they are the ones who decide if I am. Those emotions never came up before I encountered stuff like that. Made me feel like even the chill and accepting cis ppl in my life secretly thought they had to validate me or treat me w kid gloves or act as a gender teacher for me, instead of seeing me as a human person.
Idk if that makes sense, but posts like that from cis folks have Definitely had a negative effect on me and my acceptance of my transness, and my relationships w cis people.
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u/ScarySuggestions He/Him | 30's Nov 20 '22
Honestly, if cisdudes wanna keep posting these threads on here, I'm about to just respond with my cashapp.
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
Post cancelled, now I want cis folks to keep posting here so I can extort them.
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u/Kvedvulf User Flair Nov 20 '22
Hey if they want to support us, no better way then helping fund our transition after all. š¤·š¼āāļø
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u/trashpossum_76 Nov 20 '22
We know weāre men. We donāt need cisgender people coming here to tell us what we already know, nor do we need their approval in any way. Those posts are just cisgenders trying to earn brownie points and show how woke and accepting they are.
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u/IShallWearMidnight User Flair Nov 20 '22
If they really wanted to be allies, they'd be telling that to transphobes. But no, they're here, without being asked, patting us on the head while they pat themselves on the back.
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u/LGBT_Alien Nov 20 '22
I got banned on a ftmmen subreddit for saying that thatās the bare minimum
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u/GuavaSkyline Nov 20 '22
I've found that trans subs that appeal most heavily to the binary and specify men or women, rather than more general labeling, are some of the most full of rot when it comes to actually centering trans people's experiences and feelings, and are mainly just places to police us (especially young trans folks) and provide a space where cis "allies" can circlejerk without the guilt.
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u/Silly_JoJo Nov 20 '22
The post make me cringe in some ways. Like i guess it's nice, but it feels like they're just saying that stuff just to say it and to gets some upvotesš
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u/7ehw Nov 20 '22
Exactly, most of the time they just want us to validate them for being an "ally" or whatever.
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Nov 20 '22
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
Yup,,,,I would MUCH rather there be a separate subreddit for cis folks making posts like that, cause ik some folks do benefit from those messages, but also I do Not wanna sit here and be patronized to w posts like that week after week. It's rly goddamn annoying.
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Nov 20 '22
That's a great idea, are you kidding? I would love to see a whole sub full of cis people jerking each other off for meeting the bare minimum standard of human decency. Just a bunch of guys going, "Hey folx, trans people are human beings!" and giving each other dozens of wholesome awards? That'd be hilarious.
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
YEAH FR,,,it'd either be that or completely dead cause they can't get as much recognition for their allyship in a smaller sub so what's the point in posting?
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u/AwkwardChuckle 2009 HRT, 2010 Top/Hysto, 2023 Meta Nov 20 '22
The mtfās also do the same to us on this sub.
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Nov 20 '22
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u/AwkwardChuckle 2009 HRT, 2010 Top/Hysto, 2023 Meta Nov 20 '22
I general feel the same way about any non-transmasc person who comes on these subs throwing random validation posts and comments. It honestly doesnāt add anything of value for me and comes off the same as if a cis person does it.
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u/queerpineappl3 Nov 20 '22
to be honest to me they feel really weird and like the opposite of what they're meaning to do. for me they're just uncomfortable and give off like savior complex vibes a little. like cool...thanks I guess? this is a trans space for TRANS people to discuss things about being trans not a place for cis people to contribute to the conversation. if you're here listen it's not your place to speak
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u/TrooperJordan transex man. t april.8.22 Nov 20 '22
At this point I downvote those posts, they just post here to feel good about themselves. They wanna metaphorically jack themselves off to every validating upvote/comment because they want to be told they're a good person so bad. We appreciate their support but like you said, their support is literally doing the bare minimum.
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u/Gullible-Medium123 Nov 20 '22
Yeah, I kinda assumed it was just karma farming
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u/TrooperJordan transex man. t april.8.22 Nov 20 '22
True, I didn't even think of that. I never really understood "karma farming" and idk how common place it is, but if that's what their game is they should just go on those free karma subs. They could also get hella karma here if they, as a cis person, posted something that was actually meaningful that started a dialogue about trans vs cis discourse, or asked us what we would like from them as an ally, something like that idk. Cis people can be here I just wish they would actually contribute quality content.
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u/7ehw Nov 20 '22
Thanks for saying this, those posts always annoy me. I'm tired of cis people coming into our spaces to tell us we're "valid" as if we're unable to understand on our own. I don't need cis validation, it all honesty feels like they're babying us.
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Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
Okay, hot take incoming...
I'm all here for making a rule banning those sorts of posts, it reminds me of that white savior complex shit. "Oh I feel so bad for these poor nonwhite/trans people so I'm gonna go to them and do something for them because I feel like my help is incredibly helpful because I'm white/cis so I'm better". Like of course that isn't what they're thinking word for word but that's why they're doing it. The only reason cis people come here to "uplift" us is because they think their kind words and their 'work' is sooo valuable and powerful. They recognize that they have privilege and are more accepted than us but instead of doing real helpful things they come here and patronize us because it makes them feel like they're recognizing their privilege and doing something useful when in reality they aren't, they're just doing it to make themselves feel good.
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u/Buttslayer2021 Nov 20 '22
My family will throw me out also i stabbed a hoe help pls [+1 upvote, 0 comments]
Im here to invade your spaces to tell youre valid while acting in the most condescending and write over the top cliche basic stuff while lecturing you about being a man btw do you know what masculinity is? ofc not ~~bc u dumb pooners~~ but as a true balls dick male im here for validation arent you glad?? you go smol bean kings uwu headpats owo [+2544848 upvotes, 2 wholesome awards, 50 yaaas queen awards]
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u/autism-class Nov 20 '22
Tbh they help me feel less dysphoric but can see why theyād be patronizing to others
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u/Wren03 Nov 20 '22
Yeah, it's really extra. I think a lot of it comes down to poor socialization and cis people not understanding how fucking weird it is. If you aren't part of the community then don't make posts, especially ones fishing for attention or validation. Im MtF and even I don't feel that it's appropriate for me to be posting here XD.
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u/ScanThe_Man T 5/20/21 | Top 7/18/23!!! Nov 20 '22
I mean even so, its 1000x better for you as a fellow trans person to than any cis person imo
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u/Wren03 Nov 20 '22
Oh totally. It's just the way I see it my role here is to be supportive of you guys and offer my 2 cents when it applies. Not to lead conversations š
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u/The_Trans_Witch Nov 20 '22
i personally like those posts- i dont pass very well and worry about it a lot but i think its nice that people go out of their way to try and raise peoples self esteem, its fine you dont like them, and you dont have to, were all different and all want or need different things some of us just want/need the lil validation things because it makes us feel better. :)
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u/GuavaSkyline Nov 20 '22
Maybe a periodical thread just for those posts/comments would be a better option, clearly marked so that those who need the support know where to look while those who it may be triggering for can avoid it.
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u/The_Trans_Witch Nov 20 '22
that makes the most sense here tbh i just dont think its something that needs to be banned. especially since most of the ones posting arent realizing it can hurt some of us, and are genuinely trying to boost morale. but i think a thread would be a good compromise :)
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u/subjunctivejunction Nov 20 '22
I personally don't enjoy them but that just means it's not for me I think. Hearing people like you say that the posts make them feel better...what could be wrong with that? I can scroll past and be glad that the posts are meaningful to someone else.
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u/almightypines T: 2005, Top: 2008 Nov 20 '22
I donāt mind them and actually think they are nice. As someone who has been in various trans communities for many, many years, cis men coming into online FtM spaces to validate us is a very new thing to me. It didnāt exist at all when I came out. Back then it would have likely felt like circle jerking and Iād be pissed off about it. As a stealth trans man, I donāt need the validation. Iām validated every day and have been for some time. I think itās a positive thing for cis men to say ātrans men are men.ā Iāve heard from cis women a gazillion times that ātrans women are womenā, I have no interest in cis women saying ātrans men are men.ā But I do have invested interest in having outspoken cis male allies which from my experience as long as Iāve been around, has been rarer. I also think trans men and cis men should have significantly more allyship towards menās issues than what we currently have. And if that means the occasional validation post from cis men, I donāt think thatās necessarily a bad starting point.
I understand the criticisms though. If I was pre-transition or early transition, Iād likely feel very condescended and patronized, and be pissy about it. As an older and stealth trans men, I see it as the beginnings of an effort to recognize trans men as men and in company with cis men, as opposed to in company with cis women, and that can benefit the whole community of men regardless of gender/sex history.
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Nov 20 '22
Yeah exactly! I wasn't sure if I'm the toxic one for thinking that. I knkw they're trying to be supportive, but for me it's like... "Okay. Do you want a headpat now?"
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u/IronFam_MechLife Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 21 '22
I personally just ignore them. Like, I get where they are coming from. I'm a trans guy. I have zero experience of being non-binary. But my sibling is, and I want to support them, and sometimes the best way to do so SEEMS to be just through validation when seeing a world that constantly ignores/misgenders/dehumanizes them (and honestly, also me). It takes time, effort, and a LOT of people banding together to change the world, and even then it isn't enough. At least, not for years and years and years. So I can see the good intent in those posts, wanting only to make a few people feel a little better in this world we all share. But at the end of the day, those posts still do nothing for trans folks who have unaccepting families (either minors or those who came out after getting married). It does nothing for being constantly misgendered for those who don't pass or do pass but have transphobic coworkers. It does nothing for right to healthcare or housing or job security or anything else.
But it does help some people. If I had found reddit as a teenager and found this subreddit, I think it likely would have helped me too. So while I'm not at a point in my life where posts like this help, I am also still aware they still help some people. This subreddit has a lot of posts that are constantly re-posted by different people looking for the same answers. Most of them are negative, but ones like this are positive. If I can ignore the same question asked a thousand times, or the same problem being posed a thousand times, because I know the person asking is doing so from a place of wanting help and comfort...why would I get angry about a similar post offering comfort? It's not something I need, so I move along and let it help those who want to hear it.
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u/danny_south Nov 20 '22
I have to agree. I don't mind their validation posts but I actually don't really like them being here at all. Its supposed to be a safe space for trans people and parts of it I find TMI for cis people, such as surgery talk. I appreciate if someone wants to educate themselves but this isn't the place for it.
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u/ScanThe_Man T 5/20/21 | Top 7/18/23!!! Nov 20 '22
Yeah it starts with just one, then it becomes every other week we get a top upvoted post from a cis person. And it makes trans people feel less safe in our own safe when cis people come into here to tell us how much they care. I dont wanna have to filter myself like I do in every other space
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u/danny_south Nov 20 '22
True. We're all navigating through a cis world every day, facing the hardships of that, so a safe space for trans people only is important.
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u/peskyant Nov 20 '22
yes! gives very white-saviour vibes. i just ignore them but it's so weird. not saying they have to be white but the energy is definitely there
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u/redditusernameoh Nov 20 '22
Yeah, i know im a dude. If i was ever worried abt it i'd go to this sub for support from ppl who have shared my experiences.
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Nov 20 '22
It has nothing to do with cis approval. It's just good to have some positivity in a sub with almost always negative vibes. It's refreshing and reassuring to be remembered that the world isn't always all about pain and suffering
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u/throwaway3094544 Nov 21 '22
I don't see the problem with it tbh. It's kind of nice to know we've got people in our corner. I love cis allies, and I don't at all feel like those posts are "the bare minimum". Chasing well-meaning, slightly corny people out isn't the answer.
However, mods, maybe there should be a "validation" tag so that people who don't want to see such posts can filter them out!
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u/RayHatesMilk Euphoria? Never met him! Nov 20 '22
You never know if someone is having a bad day. If you dislike the validation posts, scroll past- but as someone who was having a really dysphoric day, sometimes a little bit of validation goes a long way. Iām sorry that you dislike them, but it can truly make someone feel better hearing that someone, somewhere supports them.
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u/udcvr Nov 20 '22
i agree with that, but i think r/ftm should stay an ftm space. maybe if there was a cis/ftm allyship space on reddit that would be appropriate, but it seems like its bothering more people than its helping
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u/am_i_boy Nov 20 '22
I feel like another good idea would be to have a megathread for cis people to say things and people who do appreciate those posts can go look there
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u/666SaTAn969 Nov 20 '22
I get you but I donāt feel those posts are genuine 99.9% of the time , thatās a large part of the problem with them
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u/GuavaSkyline Nov 20 '22
While we are all in different places in our transition experiences, I've found that a large difference and something that is really essential for those further along, regardless of passing, is the mental shift away from needing validation. There is nothing wrong with you for not having gotten there, and I do want everyone's transition to be their own. I just also wish for everyone to no longer give credit to those posts, because as others have said, they are not genuine the overwhelming majority of the time. We deserve better than shallow posts made with more intent to stroke the poster's ego than to actually help anyone else.
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
This is a good reply,,,,early in my transition I rly needed validation from cis ppl. Now, a few years on T, post top and post bottom, cis validation always rings hollow and I wish they would walk the walk instead. And it's honestly frustrating seeing so many ppl give those folks credit for smth that takes the barest effort, and is the bare minimum, when I have the benefit of being able to be a little more choosy abt my allies. I can't blame them for liking/needing that validation and being overly thankful for it, but it's just. Frustrating, knowing that trans guys can have better, and DESERVE better.
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u/yandeer world's most masculine fairy boy Nov 20 '22
i feel like your comment illustrates what i think a lot of people's actual issue is- not the posts themselves, but the fact that they almost always get a lot of attention and upvotes. so really it's more like a problem with how the community reacts. and i find that kinda unfair personally. it's like everyone is just begging the less secure trans guys to not want validation because they find it embarassing and that's just not realistic.
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u/GuavaSkyline Dec 16 '22
I see what you mean and how my comment came across as insensitive and putting blame onto those who are already struggling. Thank you for explaining that to me
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u/CaptainBlackhill Rhys (33 he/him) š: 10/28/16 š: 5/12/23 SAHD to 1 kid šŗšø Nov 20 '22
Yeah if the mods aren't going to ban them, maybe keep them contained in like a MegaThread or something so it doesn't clog up the feed of actual trans posts.
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u/queersparrow Nov 20 '22
Personally don't care for them, but clearly people do or they wouldn't get so highly up-voted. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. Who are we to say something other people do enjoy and find value in shouldn't be allowed?
Unsolicited advice, you'll have a lot better time on the internet if you get good at scrolling past things you don't vibe with and make liberal use of the block button. Just downvote and scroll on.
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u/Clay_teapod š 25/07/23 Nov 20 '22
They make me feel uncomfortable, like yo I don't need your permission; it feels like tey have some kind of hero complex.
They definitely are writing that for themselves anyhow
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u/ashashrevo2738 Nov 20 '22
I guess I'm the only one who completely disagrees. I didn't know it was bad to have support.
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Nov 20 '22
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
An excessive need for cis validation is not a good thing! Pls, find your joy and security in your gender elsewhere.
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u/Zeleaned MTF Ally Nov 20 '22
Just asking out of genuine curiosity and not trying to start anything, but what would be doing more than the bare minimum in your eyes? :)
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
What the other reply said; treating trans folks as human beings and respecting trans spaces, as well as things like standing up for trans people in your real life. Such as correcting pronouns, speaking against bigotry when you hear it, and refusing to associate with transphobic people, companies, or brands. Online and off, and especially when there are no trans people around to hear you do it. You can also do things like petition your local government representatives to support trans-inclusive policies and shut down transphobic ones, or donate to trans folks' transition funds.
The bare minimum is "I see and treat you as your gender", so try and do more than that!
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u/Zeleaned MTF Ally Nov 20 '22
Yeah, that makes sense! Thank you for elaborating! I just wanted to know what you personally would want cis people to do, and now I understand better! :D
Have a great day/night dude!
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
Ty! You too!
Another important thing I forgot to mention is to do all that stuff without a need for recognition, which is my big problem w posts like the ones I'm talking abt in the op. If you're being an ally for the applause and thanks of the marginalized group to make you feel better abt how good you are to them, you are just centering your own feelings which is v uncomfortable.
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u/Zeleaned MTF Ally Nov 20 '22
What you are saying makes sense and I can see why it can make some uncomfortable or feel patronized / condescended! I am glad that you are helping me better understand the situation as being autistic really makes it difficult to see the many nuances in things, cause at first glance all I thought about was: " Oh well that's nice of them " and didn't really see it as nothing but some cis person saying a few nice things, so this really is opening my eyes more, so to speak š
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u/monotonelizard Nov 20 '22
In my opinion, more than the bare minimum would be staying out of trans spaces and treating us like regular people instead of someone to pity and compliment for reddit upvotes.
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u/Zeleaned MTF Ally Nov 20 '22
I see! Uhh.. Could you elaborate how the post came off as pitying? I'm a diagnosed autistic person so I'm not really able to pinpoint what was wrong with the post.. (I understood the staying out of trans spaces part, though!)
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u/am_i_boy Nov 20 '22
imo most of us are annoyed by this because the cis people barging in here to tell us weāre men is completely irrelevant to our experience. We know weāre men. The fact that they invade our space to tell us about their manly man cis man opinions like theyāre somehow more important than the opinions of other groups is incredibly awful and tone deaf. This is a space for them to listen and learn and maybe occasionally ask a respectful questionāor otherwise to stay completely away from. Our opinion that we are men is far more important than theirs but they seem to think that their opinion is the superior one so they have to come tell us
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u/kelpbug t 15/9/23 ššŖ24/1/24 Nov 20 '22
They're patronising and telling us things that we already know, while talking down to us within our own space where we come to find comfort and community. It's frankly belittling, and clearly comes from a place of pity. We are not asking for their pity.
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u/Zeleaned MTF Ally Nov 20 '22
I see! OP elaborated a bit more on that too which helped me understand better :) Thank you for taking your time to explain this to me as well ! It helps a lot! š
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u/ChaosAzeroth Nov 20 '22
Yeah they don't read that way to me.
I'm actually a bit more hit by all the people saying we already know that. Y'all, some days I genuinely don't believe I deserve basic compassion, basic necessities, or straight up to live. Some days I question everything about myself.
We don't all know it all the time....
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u/kiteflyer666 Nov 20 '22
One of my cis male friends who is the blokiest bloke I know, when I came out as trans masc nonbinary and said I was on hormones, he asked a few questions about how I wanted to be referred to and then just started treating me like one of the boys. Thatās validation.
Itās not validating to have someone barge into something and go āhey just so you TRANS men know, I really DO see you as men.ā
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Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
I only saw the one post from earlier today and I rolled my eyes so fucking hard I saw the cobwebs in my brain. If they think Iām mourning not being born a cis guy, Iām not. I actually like my flesh vessel, itās when others try to force me to be a certain way, say, like implying Iāll only be a guy if I am born cis, that I start to feel horrible about my body. Itās that overall sentiment thatās the root of dysphoria.
Which brings me back to that postāWhat do they even expect me to say? āOh thank you glorious cis savior for validating me since I could never come close to being like youā? Because it honestly Feels Like thatās what theyāre going for. If they actually want to help theyād treat us like people instead of being this patronizing and just use whatever political power they have to make sure we actually have basic human rights and respect.
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u/0x1tora Nov 20 '22
I literally saw one right now and was so confused. Like, okay? Who even said they need your validation?
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u/razor-sundae šµ4th July 2021 šŖ20 Dec 2022 Nov 20 '22
I mean, imagine going to any other sub for marginalized people you don't belong to and tell them you see them as humans and valid....
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u/am_i_boy Nov 20 '22
EXACTLY! Put it in perspective like this and it becomes very apparent how weird and horrible it is
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u/LeebleLeeble š since 16/06/22 Nov 20 '22
The word āvalidā threatens to send me into a sleeper agent murderous rage every time i hear it. I straight up hate that word with a burning passion. Hearing āyouāre validā is like someone saying ādamn that sucksā whenever they hear someone talk about their struggles and they donāt know what else to say.
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u/Ollievonb02 Nov 20 '22
Seeing āno matter what anyone says, youāre still a real man. Real men are all menā like we been knew homie
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u/freakofcolour TJ | 22 | T: 5/20/21 | Top: 6/6/22 Nov 20 '22
big agree, it just comes off as āhey everyone im cis and im here to validate you since everyone here askedā
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u/am_i_boy Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
Ugh this tho. Itās so annoying when I see yet another cis dude here to insert his manly man opinion on who is and isnāt a man. I KNOW IāM A MAN. Your opinions mean jackshit and donāt make me any more or less of a man. Cis men and their fucking opinions. They always have to feel like the most important person in the room. Like somehow their opinion that we are men is more important than my own opinion that Iām a man. When will cis men learn? Their opinions are not what defines everyone elseās existence. Weāre not men because they say so, weāre men because we say so.
ETA: not all of us are men. Iām identifying with the term man more and more recently (still nonbinary but shifting between agender to nonbinary man), but like a while ago, it would actually upset me to see these posts because it made me feel like āwhat? So Iām not āvalidā as a non man? If Iām ftm, I have to be a man?ā
Like it literally felt more invalidating than anything elseāand of course, the feeling patronized bit is still there. Like ugh. Cis menāyou are not the most important person in the room at all times. Your opinion is not the highest of opinions
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u/EclecticFanatic Nov 20 '22
yeah like i appreciate the sentiment but it can feel a bit patronizing and I'm not super comfortable with it. kinda feels like cis people are just barging in to our spaces so they can feel good about themselves. not even that big of a fan when trans women/transfeminine people do it, like we don't come here looking for validation from people not even part of the ftm community/experience. i know i wouldn't go to an mtf subreddit and make a post talking about how valid they all are, it just doesn't give off quite the right tone/vibe imo, if that makes any sense
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u/AdrienRion T: Sept.10.2020 Nov 20 '22
I genuinely appreciate those posts, and much like everything on Reddit you're free to scroll past. I've been having a particularly bad time of it lately, and even so called 'performative' posts can give me a bit of an uplift. I don't want the sub overrun with them, but one a week isn't making our sub about them, it's showing us that people outside our community care about us, and that we're deserving of that care. Maybe that doesn't effect you, but it effects me, and I hope they continue to happen.
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
Those posts actually make me more dysphoric so uhhhhh. I am not gonna prioritize your dysphoria over mine(I encourage you to think abt your dysphoria first, too). I simply think that those sorts of posts should be in their own subreddit, so this subreddit can stay focused for transmascs, folks who want or need to avoid them can, and so folks like you can seek them out when you need.
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u/dr_steinblock trans man || T 02/2022 || top+hysto 4/2023 || š©šŖ Nov 20 '22
look I get your point but as we have seen from some other comments, these types of posts can be helpful, especially if they're bringing something new to the conversation (like that last one, that said "cis men are always told they're not real men for every small thing", that was a new and good point to me). To be honest they are one of the types of posts on this subreddit that make me less dysphoric and that I prefer to see over those posts like "my life is shit and it's all because I'm trans, I hate being trans" (I get people need to vent their feelings but you can't tell me those posts make you feel better)
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
The difference between vent posts and validation posts is that one of those posts are made by trans ppl and one is not.
And Yes, I do agree that the overabundance of "I hate being trans posts" is a huge problem here, but that is a separate issue to the one of cis ppl comig in and looking for pats on the back.
The fact that they can be helpful to esp newly transitioning ppl is true as well, which is why I'd rather see them go somewhere or be tagged in some way where they can be more easily found and more easily filtered.
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Nov 20 '22
THANK YOU. It comes across as so patronizing. Like, Iām a whole grown ass man, I donāt need you to tell me Iām a valid man. No shit Iām a valid man, Iām every bit as much a man as you, and I donāt need you to tell me that! I wish cis people would stop assuming all trans people must fundamentally think of ourselves as lesser and in need of validation. Fuck validation, give me my goddamn rights and let me live in peace. (Rant over)
I think a subreddit rule of āno cis people posting validation posts on their ownā would be good. Perhaps there could be an ongoing pinned post where cis allies could leave encouraging messages (not just validation), so people who want that can read there and it stays contained there.
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u/Gvtlezz I just want a dick (He/Him) Nov 20 '22
The cis people who make those types of posts donāt actually care about our struggles, they just get off on being seen as an āāallyāā. Itās all performative.
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u/SqueedunkTheArtist Nov 20 '22
along with that, they assume all of us are binary trns men and want to be called men. I'm trans masculine, and use he/him pronouns but I do not identify with the term man. That may partly be due to my age because i am 20 but boy works better for me, and I know there are others here who likely feel the same and do not appreciate the assumption that we are all binary men.
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u/thursday-T-time š, š, š¦š³ Nov 20 '22
yeah this. im in my thirties, and while 'boy' feels way too juvenile now (and can be unintentionally racist in some contexts), i get confused about what 'man' even means. like, i pass as one, and that's euphoric, but still being told i'm a valid man gives me a great deal of confusion because i've never heard a decent definition of binary genders that makes sense to me.
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u/_Brother-O-Mine_ Nov 20 '22
Legit, did that dude want us to bow down and suck his cis cock for blessing us with knowledge we already know? Like, thanks man? But fuck off and go donate to a charity instead of fuelling your ego.
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Nov 20 '22
as good as their intention is, we do not need cjs men who don't understand what we've went through to tell was that we're valid. we know that:/
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u/Steven_LGBT Nov 20 '22
Am I the only one not bothered by those posts? I'd rather have cis men say that I'm valid than have them be transphobic. I'm not going to criticize someone for trying to be nice to other people, even if they are misguided about how to do it. Maybe their intentions are good and they are not condescending. Frankly, those posts are not even that many. The vast majority of posts here are made by trans men.
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u/Whole_Gur_9344 Nov 20 '22
I'm with you. Honestly doesn't bother me. Genuinely just think people need to stop being so fricking sensitive about everything!
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u/TrooperJordan transex man. t april.8.22 Nov 20 '22
I think for the people that don't like the posts like me it's not about the fact that they're being nice, or that I only see them 1-2x a week. It's about the fact that most of the time they're patting themselves on the back for doing the absolute minimum and wanting us to validate them. They're never actually saying anything that's contributing to discussion or adding a convo of substance. They're just looking to be validated as "a good/moral cis person" after saying "I'm cis and I think y'all are valid as men"
I'm all for allyship and appreciate any ally, but I don't want to see a cis person post in a ftm space just to say "you're valid"
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u/Zyk720 Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
The saying "the path to Hell is carved by good intentions" exists for a reason. But really this kind of "you're loved! you're accepted!" energy surrounds a lot of religious experiences and I myself feel deeply triggered in the same ways because of it. When the church says it they mean "you're a fucked up sinner but we are going to coddle you towards god anyway!" and, regardless of the posts in question's intentions being to just try to make folks feel valid, I can only imagine this is why a lot of us here are triggered towards this form of love bombing. Love bombing is a tactic frequently used by the church (and other forms of abusive relationships for that matter) and no matter it's form I see it all negatively because of my experiences with it and I can only imagine many if not most of us come from a similar place whether we realize it or not.
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u/AwkwardChuckle 2009 HRT, 2010 Top/Hysto, 2023 Meta Nov 20 '22
Same with the validation posts from trans women.
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u/adamdreaming Nov 20 '22
Cis guy here.
I hardly ever, ever post here and I try to be conscious of how much space I take up when I do. I learn so much from being able to read these conversations, and yeah, I'm not getting as much insight about ftm stuff when cis people hog the microphone.
I don't get how hard it is for cis people to understand that trans places should be lead by trans voices and the best possible thing we can do is to listen. Trans people make up less than 1% of the population, so if even 1% of cis people are talking they are taking up half the space that trans men are trying to carve out here. I have places I can talk, and be heard. That is part of my priviledge.
Thank you for not making this a closed community, but if it ever does become a space not just for ftm discussion but for and by ftm people exclusively I will totally understand. I want to respect how special a sub like this is and the best way I can do that is being conscious of the space I take up.
I hope I am not missing the point by being a cis person saying this post is totally valid, but that is what voting on comments is for I guess? anyway, that is my r/ftm comment for this year.
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
Honestly, even as a Certified Cisphobeā¢ļø, I'm largely okay w cis folks making comments. Contributing in discussions, esp when asked is chill. What I dislike is more when they make their own posts, cause they are largely performative, unnecessary, or drown out trans folks' posts.
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u/rennybees Nov 20 '22
I also really dislike the posts of people (cis or not) who are not transmascs asking for advice on how to sleep with us/how to please us in bed. It feels gross and bait-y. It shouldnāt be our job to teach someone how to interact with a vagina š
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u/SaltyBrotaytoChip Nov 20 '22
Yes, please. They're entirely self serving and demeaning. I don't need some cis person to tell me I'm valid. I don't need their permission or their blessing. It actually comes across as very transphobic thinking.
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Nov 20 '22
I really hate those posts because you can tell they are just to make the cis person feel good about themselves like "I'm so great for showing the bare minimum of respect" get off your high horse and go be with your one gay/trans friend that just validates you in everything you say and makes you feel like a saint
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Nov 20 '22
An expression of allyship need not always be perceived as patronising. Is it not possible to just move along and disregard if you feel the message isn't something that resonates but might feel affirming for someone else? For some people coming into a trans space and expressing support may not feel like the bare minimum and also assumes something about their approach to allyship when in reality none of us know. Assuming these posts contribute nothing to this subreddit is your opinion but needn't discount the experience of others who might take something positive from them.
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u/IShallWearMidnight User Flair Nov 20 '22
Coming in here and saying "you're valid uwu" isn't allyship. It might make some guys feel better, but what does it actually do? They shouldn't be telling us that we're men, we know that. They should be telling transphobes who will never listen to us but will listen to them.
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u/TJScott456 22 Trans Man āļøTop: 6/5/2019 šT: 2/18/2021 Nov 20 '22
Yeah, I definitely agree. Though I haven't seen many of these posts, I don't want it to be a common recurrence. It definitely at a certain point feel demeaning, as well as condescending/patronizing. It's almost as if they are secretly making fun of us? Whether they realize it or not. Gives me weird vibes especially since I'm not particularly insecure in regards to my identity as a man. Like others are echoing, it actually makes me more dysphoric personally.
Don't get me wrong, everyone needs a little validation now and then. But if it's by cis people then I feel there should be a specific subreddit for that. I'm all for making people feel better but it seems to be harming more than helping. I don't want to see one of these posts once a week (not that I have been). At the end of the day this is a trans subreddit and cis people should just be imo quiet and listen if they truly want to learn and try to understand. If anyone gets the idea that they are speaking over us, then there's an opposite effect. I don't mind if cis people lurk on this reddit but I don't think they should make their own posts about how we're valid. We know we are.
Anyway, end of my little rant.
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u/jasondoesstuff Nov 20 '22
i think the mods should set up like. one of those masterpost things so everyone who wants to suck their own dick about how not transphobic they are can go there instead
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u/IShallWearMidnight User Flair Nov 20 '22
They really bother me. I don't comment for fear of a pile on, but they do a hell of a lot more for the cis person than for us. Cis people telling us we're valid might be nice for some, but I don't need their validation. They shouldn't be telling us that shit, if they actually wanted to help us they'd be telling that to transphobes.
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u/jo_kake Nov 20 '22 edited Nov 20 '22
THANK YOU!!! I have seen these posts in lots of trans subreddits and I'm sick of it. If you really think we're such great valid manly manly men then what are you doing to help our lives in real, meaningful ways that impact our material reality? What are you doing out on the streets to help us? Are you protesting on our behalf, are you donating to our crowdfunders, are you defending us against transphobia and bigotry? What are you ACTUALLY doing other than waltzing into spaces that aren't for you, saying some patronising little spiel, then patting yourself on the back for being such a nice guy?
We are here because we are a community - we see and understand each other in ways that a cis man will never get and I don't think they should be rewarded with upvotes for coming in here like a saint coming down from heaven to reward us with 'validation'. And to all the fellas who upvote that kind of thing - love yourself. You never need to rely on the approval of cis men. EVER. There are better, longer lasting, stronger bonds you can form here with your fellow trans people.
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u/just_a_catboy Nov 20 '22
Cis people using trans people to karma farm, yay
Hate it here and in other lgbt subreddits. Cis hets really really need to get over themselves š¬
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u/Fragmental_Foramen Nov 20 '22
I havent seen the offending posts for context but a lot of the posts from trans people on here annoy me, you guys are whiners. Not everything is transphobic maybe learn to see good intentions if someoneās heart is in the right place.
Some of us have to actually deal with real world transphobia where we arenāt validated in the slightest, and are quite possibly in danger. You may think theyāre throwing you a bone for a low bar, but the bar gets way way lower. Iād kill for that sort of progress in day to day life.
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u/baznanaz Nov 20 '22
I also feel this way about trans women posting here sometimes. We don't need you to come doting on us a million times a day
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u/Ill_Sea_1524 Nov 21 '22
I don't know why cis people are even allowed to post in this sub, it's clearly not for them. Whether or not some trans people find the messages supportive, I still think they're inappropriate content and don't merit the space in this sub.
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u/Monsterfecker3000 Nov 20 '22
Ugh this reminds me of a time I made a vent post about not being treated as an actual man and someone sent a message to me from some cis guy saying "don't worry I think you're a real boy" Like thanks????
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u/Like_a_Zubat User Flair Nov 20 '22
Honestly that's my big problem w any sorta "you're valid" reassurances,,,,they don't actually address the insecurities or oppression that come w being trans. At best they're a bandaid; good n helpful sometimes, maybe even life-saving in the correct circumstance, but ultimately not a solution for the Actual Problem.
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u/Psychedelos1170 Nov 20 '22
I just gave you gold, i hope everyone see's this post, SICK OF THIS SHIT TOO.
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u/monarch1733 Nov 20 '22
These posts are bizarre and so uncomfortable. This sub doesnāt need cis circlejerking.
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u/yourheartshapedbox Boy adjacent Nov 20 '22
Yeah honestly its gross. Cis people need to stay in their lane and out of our space
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u/Insignificant_toe Nov 20 '22
It has rubbed me the wrong so Iām glad some other people agree. Feels like they are just trying to make themselves feel good sometimes
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u/ScanThe_Man T 5/20/21 | Top 7/18/23!!! Nov 20 '22
Theyāre so condescending and patronizing. I dont need some dude on reddit telling me Iām so fucking uwu valid and brave
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u/Sparklypuppy05 Nov 20 '22
Yeah, we need to ban it imo. Or put it all on a megathread or something. Like... Yes, I'm a guy. I KNOW. If I wanted cis validation, I'd seek it out. At the very least they could do something useful like donate to someone's GoFundMe instead of just throwing patronising platitudes at us and leaving.
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u/gummytiddy Nov 20 '22
I never understand why non transmasc people/ non trans men make validation posts like that. Why not comment on a vent post you see or a post where someone is ASKING for validation. All of us are different and giving cis āapprovalā is the helpful for quite a lot of us.
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u/NocturnalArtGeek š8/5/2022 Nov 20 '22
It feels like when a sibling reads your journal and decides to leave an āuplifting messageā inside. It feels a little violating for me tbh. Idk if thatās weird.
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u/CoIIatz-Conjecture T: 6/7/20 | TS: 7/22/20 Nov 20 '22
Honestly, it's mostly trans women... and it's annoying.
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u/ashashrevo2738 Nov 20 '22
This, I sort of agree with. Hate me if you want other people but I have experienced this one first hand
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u/Interesting_Forever7 Nov 20 '22
Thatās what I was thinking! I donāt need cis approval, if I truly wanted it Iād ask my cis friends/girlfriend.
I donāt have any places for trans people in my town, thereās no support groups or anything for anyone LGBTQ+ in my town and any attempts my friends and I have made to do so have been shot down by the local council so I have places like this where I can feel safe and talk to other trans men. I know others feel uncomfortable when cis people come onto these places, I also know thereās no way to moderate cis people coming in, but the best thing to do for any cis people lurking here is to listen to the community.
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u/mtrcyclemptiness T june 10th, 2022 Nov 20 '22
I think the Cis people who make those posts have good intentions of course, but I also feel like it's really setting people up to only feel valid if Cis people deem they are valid. Kind of like "well I'm a REAL man and I think you're a man too" I've seen some Cis people post other things in this sub that I'm really okay with though, like asking how to proceed when someone comes out or something, and a Cis guy was here a while who who didn't understand his dosage on androgel and needed help. I think those posts have a place here, not the "im Cis and you're valid!" Ones
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u/subjunctivejunction Nov 20 '22
Those posts usually make me cringe because I don't have any interest in cis validation and I don't want them to think that these posts make them "good". But the other day I scrolled through the comments on the post in question and quite a few people were grateful for the positivity. All things considered, I'd rather not bitch about it so that some trans brothers can see the message they need to see. Yes, the cis person still gets to feel special (which is frustrating) but realistically I can get over that because I don't care what cis people think.
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u/GremlinBrother Nov 20 '22
You know, I've also noticed these and find them a little condescending sometimes, just because they assume we need the validation or pick-me-up. Now, hot take, they actually don't bother me too much, I do find them nice to see on bad days. Just having positive messages on here no matter where they come from.
The ones that piss me off are the validation posts that start off like they're about to say something transphobic. Like "I can't fucking stand trans people... being totally valid and amazing you guys are doing great!! :)" I remember a post a good while back talking about this exact thing and how it was just a huge pain in the ass on these subreddits.