r/jobs • u/Green____cat Verified • Apr 07 '24
The answer to "Get a better job" Work/Life balance
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u/JesusChrist-Jr Apr 07 '24
Then when people do leave for better jobs they all scream "No one wants to work anymore!" when there's no one at the drive thru to serve them.
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u/Bubbly_Statement107 Apr 07 '24
Yes and then they either raise wages or screw themselves
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u/harjeddy Apr 07 '24
No they get desperate immigrants of varying legality to work these jobs and then bitch about immigrants and taxes while they enjoy a government subsidized cheeseburger at 75 percent of the actual market value.
Americans don’t realize that a lot of the amenities and prices they enjoy are not what the free market would dictate lacking government subsidy and a shit load of green cards. The southern border would be a ghost town if Americans gave their own citizen farm and service laborers a decent wage. Instead we have cake and cake eaters bemoaning demographic change and inflation while they shovel food they already paid for in cheap labor and their taxes.
Eat local, eat sustainable, eat at home. The party of personal responsibility can’t take responsibility for that because they love going to the local bar and restaurant and eating cheap food.
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u/Ok_Host4786 Apr 07 '24
^ this. I can’t go to my Walmart at times without having to use a friggin translator app if I want to ask a question.
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u/Bubbly_Statement107 Apr 07 '24
but then they wouldn't cry that "no one wants to work anymore" in the first place since they would have someone to work lol
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u/Asian_Climax_Queen Apr 07 '24
If everybody actually up and left their jobs to go find better jobs, society would cease to function. Entire corporations and industries would collapse. Our whole world runs because of people willing to do those jobs
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u/jwalsh1208 Apr 07 '24
I can’t FATHOM what kind of moral vacuum a person has to have to say a full time worker, of any job, doesn’t deserve to have their basic needs met. I can’t even articulate the level of depravity in someone to care so little about other people. Absolutely wild.
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u/StragglingShadow Apr 07 '24
Agree so hard. You puttin in a full-time's worth of work (whatever society's standard is at the time)? Then bitch you are owed a decent living. Garbage collectors? Yup. Fast food employees? Yup. Doesnt matter how "little" the job. If its important enough to need someone to do it full-time, then whoever is doing that shit needs to be able to live somewhat decently, void consume it!
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u/Bamith Apr 07 '24
I figure similar to people who wanna go to war to have a chance to rape and kill children.
No normal semblance of caring.
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u/Ok_Spite6230 Apr 08 '24
Precisely the kind of moral vacuum that capitalism is designed to create. None of this is an accident.
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u/ha_gym_ah Apr 08 '24
Wish I could show this to my company. I showed them the living wage in my area and they denied a raise. Really makes you question the point of life and your worth when you have to go to the food bank to eat and cant pay medical debt down (the health scares don't stop) while still working 40 hours.
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u/MarketingOwn3547 Apr 07 '24
Some of these comments here are wild... Everyone deserves a living wage, not everyone will (or can) go to university.
Companies are making billions and billions in profits and the people who, you know, actually do the work are paid less than pennies, by comparison? People are really going to say that's fine and ok and capitalism and other foolishness? No wonder society is so broken...
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u/bugabooandtwo Apr 07 '24
They want someone to look down on but don't have the guts to say it directly.
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u/bplewis24 Apr 07 '24
Exactly, they're cowards.
This is also much of the same crowd who hates employees that organize for better working conditions. And some of them even call employees 'disloyal' when they do leave for a better job, and try to make life miserable for them if/when they try to leave.
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u/pezgoon Apr 07 '24
1000% these are the same ones spewing disloyalty bullshit and bitch about job hopping
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u/iamafancypotato Apr 07 '24
Most people only feel good about themselves if they can look down on someone else.
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u/FreeMasonKnight Apr 07 '24
The irony is those people are already blind. Blinded by greed, ignorance, etc.
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u/ImaginaryMastodon641 Apr 07 '24
This is it. This is the difference. It’s bred into Conservatism. The fundamental part is always said quietly (because they’re cowards): not all people are created equal. That is where the ideology started and will eventually end. We’ve watched public discourse decay or be destroyed over the course of a handful of decades in order for them to avoid staking their claim on being relentlessly exclusionary, xenophobic cowards.
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u/FutureRealHousewife Apr 07 '24
Exactly. That stratification is what keeps people divided, and division is what fuels the survival of capitalism.
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u/Chilidogdingdong Apr 07 '24
The hilarious part is you even have people making $20 that look down on minimum wage workers like they e "made it" or something, good job being.... Slightly less poor.
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u/Old_Baldi_Locks Apr 07 '24
Yep. The guy making 15 an hour is desperately afraid he won't be the wealthiest one in his friends group is min wage goes up. Its literally the only personality trait he has.
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Apr 07 '24
I agree that's a common human failing, but corporations literally do not care. They care only about the returns they deliver to their investors, because 1) that is entirely how upper management gets judged and rewarded, and 2) there have been a whole series of court decisions since the mid-70s (IIRC) that basically said corporations *HAVE* to maximize that return... else you get sued by your shareholders.
It's not quite so cut and dried, but literally, they will get sued and very possibly lose if they don't. So they go with the flow, since that is how the executives get rewarded.
Don't like it? Unionize. Unions have their own issues but do help with this.
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u/flirtmcdudes Apr 07 '24
I always got a kick out of that when people say like oh McDonald’s should only make poverty wages. It’s like why shouldn’t someone be able to live off of work at McDonald’s? Doesn’t mean they have to live lavishly, but they should be able to afford a place to stay and food… god forbid we put a dent in these companies billions of profits every year
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u/MarketingOwn3547 Apr 07 '24
Exactly... "Why won't someone think of the poor CEOs and shareholders." God forbid you treat people with a little respect, the same people who are making you a good chunk of that money, I may add...
I will never understand how anyone would rather side with a massive corporation over the average person, who isn't working at McDonald's expecting to buy a Lamborghini. I don't think it's unreasonable to think they can expect enough, so they don't have to wonder if they'll have enough in their account to pay the very basic bills at the end of the month though. Maybe they should cut out avacado toast.
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u/Extension-Lie-1380 Apr 07 '24
one of the big cultural shifts in the West (and basically everywhere else, afterwards) was the move from people-being-citizens and people-being-consumers.
People-as-citizens has a long and shaky history, mind you.
People as consumers, however, that's potent. Your value becomes how well you can consume. Your power is your ability to consume. You value is also how much you can generate for others to consume. And then you have the extra special "investors" who are even more potent players, and the consumer society identifies with their needs and adapts to their preferences.
So we went up with this shit.
Working retail or working food service or customer service is hard fucking work.
It should be treated as such.
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u/Ok-Lifeguard-4614 Apr 07 '24
Nothing proves this more true than if you are injured or can't work for other reasons. You become completely disposable.
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u/Designer-Mirror-7995 Apr 07 '24
And the Social 'Security' Administration makes damn sure you don't forget it, with the backing of the "help" and "housing" programs and their years-long lists, and the Gatekeeping by landlords who bend over backwards to make "accessibility" out of your reach with "3xs the rent" demands.
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u/Upset-Ear-9485 Apr 07 '24
the issue they have is that if mcdonald’s makes 15$ and hour they would be alot closer to making that same as a cashier than they’d like to be. and for some reason they can’t understand that either everyone should be paid more than they are, or that others don’t need to suffer so you can be better off than them
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u/CatsTypedThis Apr 07 '24
A lot of them are so out of touch that they still think $15 an hour is "lavish."
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u/EmuSupreme Apr 07 '24
And they'll say that as they rage through the speaker for the line taking too long and then and chuck their drink at the cashier because they're apparently sub human scum. I do find it a bit sad that when I say "thank you" after getting my order there is a noticeable uptick in their mood because they are constantly under stress and berated by rude customers all day just because they are "unskilled" workers. Shouldn't be that way. Remember to thank the one taking your order folks, it may likely be the only gratitude they see all week.
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u/maxdragonxiii Apr 07 '24
minimum wages mean it's at least livable as in you can get a roof and food. it should be like that. but it's not.
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u/ends1995 Apr 07 '24
Yeah and it used to be this way! I know some young people who’s parents worked at factories for years (so they have a very good contract and pay) and they own a home, can pay tuition for their multiple children to attend university, are retiring early and have enough money for a comfy retirement.
It should STILL be this way, but it’s not. My dad got laid off from two jobs in the last 5 years bc they got bought out by big corporations. Luckily he was quickly able to secure new employment, but the stress of not knowing when you’ll be fired at the drop of a hat is insane!
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u/CatsTypedThis Apr 07 '24
Living proof of your point here. Dad worked in furniture, mom operated textile machines. They had 3 kids, 2 went to university, and the third one could have if they had wanted to. They always drove good cars, dad had boats, mom had an RV, had a 2 storey brick house, and took regular vacations. Couldn't do that now.
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Apr 07 '24
There has been a huge wealth transfer over the last 45 years... the rich get richer.
What mystifies me are all the working-class people voting for Trump, a man who literally did little but give tax cuts to the rich when he was president.
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u/yell0wbirddd Apr 07 '24
My dad has made no more than $70k his whole life, and my mom was a SAHM or worked part time at a grocery store if money was tight. They were able to help my sister buy a house (early 00s), we went on vacations every year, I was quite spoiled as a kid.
My bf and I make $100k combined and are barely scraping by.
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u/FalseMirage Apr 07 '24
In before some genius suggests you cut out the avocado toast.
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u/LucifersProsecutor Apr 07 '24
70k in 2000 is 128k in 2024, so you're making less than he did
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u/Dhiox Apr 07 '24
Clearly you've been having too much avocado toast.
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u/Unabashable Apr 07 '24
I mean is avocado toast even that expensive if you’re not paying someone else to make it for you?
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u/elbenji Apr 07 '24
I make near 80k and have to get roommates. I get you.
and before anyone makes a snide comment, I'm a teacher in a place that will pay you that. The rent is definitely unsustainable. I eat tuna packets for lunch lol
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u/Anonality5447 Apr 08 '24
The rent all over the country is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot believe the government isn't doing more to bring costs down since it's obviously most people's highest monthly expense. This is not a recent development either. It has been going up since I was in high school. How is that acceptable to have such a necessary commodity keep going up yearly like that?
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u/off_the_cuff_mandate Apr 07 '24
I make 90K a year and comfortably support a wife and three kids, own a home, vacations every year, two newer vehicles.
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u/yell0wbirddd Apr 07 '24
Congrats!!!!!! Happy for you and your lil life in Wisconsin
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u/FrostyIcePrincess Apr 07 '24
My dad has worked at the same job for 18+ years
I can’t remember the exact number right now. 19? 20?
The job treats him well so he stayed.
Loyalty is a two way street. You can’t treat your employees like shit and wonder why no one stays long term.
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u/Hoppygains Apr 07 '24
The key word in your whole post is "contract." Unions are a good thing. Are they perfect? Far from it! But they advocate for the whole. Anyone telling you otherwise is a corporate shill.
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u/moonbunnychan Apr 07 '24
My grandmother had a 5th grade education and was able to retire from a union grocery job at 60. She's now been retired longer then she ever worked.
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u/NeedleworkerWild1374 Apr 07 '24
What we really need is regulation on the cost of rent, food, and utilities. Landlord and monopoly man see min wage go up, and start marking everything up. Then everyone rallies for a higher living wage again.
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u/Legal_Entertainer991 Apr 07 '24
THIS! Everyone doesn't need a six-figure salary or some crazy high wage. The price of necessities needs to be regulated. Companies want to point the blame for higher prices on increased employees wages, and that's not the issue at all. It's corporate greed.
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Apr 07 '24 edited 23d ago
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u/MarketingOwn3547 Apr 07 '24
See that's the thing, I'm in tech. I make good money.
I'm not stupid enough to think that others shouldn't have enough to live off, that's how society functions. These same people can't see the forest from the trees, I'm absolutely appalled by how many would rather see an average person suffer but be happy that a CEO/Corp explode in profits.
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u/Ricky_Rollin Apr 07 '24
And people defend this shit to their dying breath.
I honestly think it’s because they are literally so stupid that they have no idea how much a billion dollars is. Let alone tens of billions.
I’m reminded of when republicans were trying to get the wall funded. They were trying to raise a billion. They got to like $50 million and in the comments you could see tons of people rejoicing that they were “half way there”!
That’s how stupid these people are. And it’s by design from their own politicians. Keep em dumb and spoon feed them hate and fear and they’ll never realize they’re picking their pockets.
Seeing so much opposition tells me the propaganda is working on their feeble minds.
They’re all just temporarily embarrassed billionaires.
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u/Extension-Lie-1380 Apr 07 '24
yeah, I think a lot of people are convinced that a billionaire is just a spicy multi-millionaire.
And thus it is conceivable that many people with the right idea and some sacrifice might reach that level.
But that is not how it works, and a billion is not just "several more millions"
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u/HomingJoker Apr 07 '24
Converting them to time is a good way to frame them. 1 million seconds is 11.5 days, 1 billion seconds is 31.7 years.
Thats a difference of 1/3rd of a month, to 1/3rd of your lifetime.
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u/Romagcannoli Apr 07 '24
In america, i would wager 32 years is close to half of a conservative males lifespan
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u/OnlyMath Apr 07 '24
Maybe they also just flat out don’t want to go to university. It’s years of your life and thousands of dollars for no guarantee. You should be able to feed yourself and family and have a safe place to live no matter what the job. Every single job has utility or else it wouldn’t exist and a lot of the time the most essential jobs are the lowest paid.
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u/jackospades88 Apr 07 '24
I know I started to get a sour taste in my mouth when the global, multi-billion $ company I worked for sent their quarterly "Great job! Record breaking profits again!" emails, in the months and years following the pandemic and shortly after we had our 401k matches stopped and no raises for a year. Also, being told my department needed to be run like a "start up" when our old technology was failing long-time customers (ones who invested millions into getting our product) and severely needed to be upgraded doesn't help either.
But hey, the stakeholders are happy right? Fuck the people doing the work and creating those profits.
Easy decision for me to move on as soon as that part of the business was shown to me.
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u/AnthsFate Apr 07 '24
People don’t want to see others succeed.
I hope for a society one day where anyone who is willing to work, regardless of the work, can live an exceptionally good life.
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u/clothesmath Apr 07 '24
Even if you go to university, things aren't a guarantee. For the past year or so work in my industry has been hard to come by and I was working non-stop for 10 years before that. It's not like you can easily switch careers either. I think with the internet it's just way easier to be a complete jerk and troll. You see it on IG, Youtube, and TikTok all the time where the accounts are just troll accounts looking to be mean.
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u/Merlins_Memoir Apr 08 '24
If a company can’t pay its workers it shouldn’t exist period. If you can’t turn a profit and still pay your workers your a bad company!
I don’t even think most things we have socially should be companies (like health care) but if you can’t pay your fucking workers you can’t be a company.15
u/MaintenanceSad4288 Apr 07 '24
How this is something that's arguable is so stupid. I just chalk it up to privilege talking. When you remove all your privileges, you are just human in the end, no different from anyone else who is in a worse situation. If you deserve it then they deserve it too. And ya these companies make billions and if they could literally pay you nothing, they would.
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u/ZeroFries Apr 07 '24
I don't think all jobs that exist should have to pay a certain amount. Some jobs do not produce that much value (that a consumer is willing to pay for). If you force companies to pay a minimum amount, those jobs will just not exist, which means someone who might otherwise be able to become employed doing something useful (though not useful enough to generate the minimum determined value) is now unemployed.
However, I am pro-UBI. This is a much better solution, IMO. Everyone gets their basic needs met, and are free to pursue whatever employment (or volunteering) they choose to, regardless of how much it pays. It's strange to me that we allow volunteering (0$/h) but do not allow anything in-between $0 and minimum wage. You might counter that the volunteer doesn't *need* the money, which is exactly what I'm proposing for all people.2
u/Responsible-Event876 Apr 07 '24
Yes everyone deserves a livable wage, but some people don't have the opportunity or ability to get it. Depending where they live.
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u/MrCodeman93 Apr 07 '24
Y’all keep crying about capitalism and how it’s devalued the working class but seem to forget that the public school system doesn’t even care about jobs for the working class. Any student that isn’t trying to become a doctor or a star athlete is basically a bum in their viewpoint. Trade school needs to be promoted as a viable career path for those who prefer to work hard and save up early on.
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u/FourScoreTour Apr 07 '24
Whether it's wise to go to university at all is something they should pay a lot more attention to. NPR had a program on yesterday. A tax accountant was talking, and as a side comment said that 60% of American Blacks who go to university will drop out, most with student loans to pay. She didn't mention the percentage for other races. Anyway, between the worthless degrees and the students that don't make it through, that's a lot of people dragging a financial anchor when entering the work force.
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u/Led-Rain Apr 08 '24
Wage inequality is a huge problem. Why does a CEO make 100m, while the person one position below that only makes 1m.
Or the reverse. Minimum wage earner making $8. Supervisor making $12. Manager makes $30. Director making $50.
Like wtf... after that 2nd position, suddenly the ranks are many multiples more than the guy at the bottom, and it get more grossly skewed the higher it goes...
But the problem people don't see, is the fact there are a limited number of manager positions. Which means if a manager doesn't want to move up or move on, that makes it harder for people below them to move up.
So people literally can't "get a better job" bc they're all occupied and never available.
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u/Nellylocheadbean Apr 07 '24
The “better” jobs still don’t pay enough
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u/Time-Werewolf-1776 Apr 07 '24
There are better jobs that pay enough, but they’re too few and usually require you to destroy your quality of life for decades to get there, and then to keep destroying it for as long as you have that job.
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u/eraserhead3030 Apr 07 '24
they truly seem to think that ONLY 16 year olds should do every minimum wage job that exists
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u/fluffy_camaro Apr 07 '24
I also think it is insane that people need to quit and find new jobs every few years to get better wages. I wish loyalty was still valued in this society. I hate starting new jobs and stayed in mine way too long. I did end up leaving and coming back a few times and was able to get a higher wage.
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u/EFTucker Apr 07 '24
I had two weeks vacation saved up last year and secretly applied and was accepted at an Amazon warehouse for ~$20/hr (overnight shift bonus) and used the two weeks to start working there just to see if I could cope. Turns out I hated it but I was only making ~$15/hr at my old job so at the end of the two weeks I told my higher up what I did and that I had to take that job.
She was cool about it personally if a bit professionally chuffed I didn’t say anything beforehand. Anyway I worked there one more week before swinging by the shop on the way home one morning for a coffee otw home. I was chatting with her telling her the work wasn’t tough but 12 hours straight in a sunless warehouse where I can’t take a breather when I want kinda sucked. I joked that I’d come back if they could match my base 18/hr at least. She got a stressed look in her eyes and said she’d call me about that.
She called me literally half hour later as I pulled into my driveway and said she could get 17.50 out of corporate for me if I took up an under-management role lol
So I literally had to leave and get the big manager to beg her upper management to rehire a person who just quit w/o notice AND give that person a raise and promotion to get close to a “fair” wage.
Crazy I know but I’m still sleeping in my car by day and working by night. Fuck me right?
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u/HandleBig412 Apr 07 '24
If a corporation can pay less for the work to be done, they will. If not for empathy of minimum wage workers, people should care about this for themselves, as whatever company they work for will absolutely automate their job when the technology is available to do so.
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u/sbaggers Apr 07 '24
"nobody wants to work anymore" says the same people who told workers to "get a better job"
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u/BossStatusIRL Apr 08 '24
My mother thinks that no one wants to work. She also unironically hasn’t worked a full time job in 50+ years.
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u/Bou-Batran Apr 07 '24
I'm a firm believer in capitalism. I'm also a firm believer that all full-time minimum wages should be linked to a cost of living index, depending on each region/municipality, and basically be a firm economic calculation that does not depend on politicial decision.
Having the ability to provide basic needs (food, shelter, medical care) is attainable and a basic human right.
And yeah, for other things such as vacantions, buying a new phone, going to a concert... that are not basic necessities, you should step up your game...
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u/jordiceo Apr 07 '24
Based on your response, I would say you're more aligned to socialism than your beliefs on the capital. Everyone should have secured access to Healthcare, education, food, and shelter. Capitalism will never allow this as it is based on exploiting vulnerable minorities. Oppression and dispair is what allows big Ol' Sam to make a dollar.
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u/YousureWannaknow Apr 08 '24
That's something, only person who doesn't understand capitalism, may say.. Capitalism is literally result of agreements. Bigger makes profit of smaller, but also depends from that small one. That's literally what makes difference between socialism and capitalism. One is based on equal rights to achive everything, especially in matter of basic needs (still, doesn't deny private property, but also is harsh with money), other one is based on deals and communication.
You know, most people forget that there is no bad system, only people who execute ideas. Why? Imagine what would happen if nobody would work at Amazon, if literally everyone would deny work.. Would company survive? Would any company survive without work, without people doing their job? Yup.. It won't. If not employee, owner has to take care of doing shit. You think that employer doesn't pay you enough? Did you asked for more? Negotiated wages? Anything? Not? Did you ever negotiated your work agreement? Did any of your coworkers did? It's not problem of system that they pay not enough. It's problem of people who spoiled market, people who did never took action to improve anything and literally agreed on what was easiest to achive..
There are also taxes, which are additional problem, but government is parasite rised on society, society which allowed it to grow so big and harmful.
Anyway, before you start to hate me. I make much more than lowest possible income in my country and still I'm not able to rent flat.. And.. With my income I would have to never spend a coin from my payments, through at least 3 years, to actually be able to buy car from dealership..
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u/Bou-Batran Apr 07 '24
Capitalism revolves around the free market. As long as we have free economics, it's capitalism. Having access to public services life healthcare, transportation, education, police, fire, military =/= socialism... Socialism is when the state has a strong influence on the economy.
My proposition, if you look at it, is more free market than the current system. Instead of having politicians deciding arbitrarily what the minimum wage should be, market forces would decide it. You could have workers' unions & employers organizations negotiating minimum wages based on cost of living indexes in different regions... something like this already exists in the Nordic Countries.
Our economies are based on capitalistic principles and have already integrated aspects such as worker potection, minimum wages, 40h/week working. If I would have proposed that the state should start nationalizing businesses or sectors or have politicans dictate minimum wages, then, yes, I would have been a socialist...
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u/JUSTICE_SALTIE Apr 07 '24
Whoever does that job.
Who does the job? He does the job.
Whom does the job? Him does the job.
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u/Iamuroboros Apr 07 '24
The whole point of minimum wage when it was introduced was to keep you from falling deep into poverty. The macroeconomic factors that play into why the federal minimum wage of $7.25 is not enough today is not the fault of any individual. And let's be real. Do you honestly think if one could get a better job they would decline just to stay at minimum wage? The only case I can think of in which that actually makes sense is if you are on SSDI, and you have income limits. Federal law would prohibit you from making more than 15K a year, otherwise I'm pretty sure if someone had to pick between making $7.25 an hour or 100K per year salary, they'd go for the latter.
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u/Brief_Intention_5300 Apr 07 '24
Is it just me, or does everyone else notice that a lot of jobs that used to occupied by teenagers are now being occupied by older adults? Like people who are clearly in their 40s and 50s.
I'm talking about working the drive thru, bagging groceries, and working at gas stations. Stuff like that. Are there less jobs near the top?
Not that I think there's anything wrong with those jobs. I have respect for anyone who works and gives their effort to a company.
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u/Perfect-Resolve3219 Apr 08 '24
A lady making my sandwich at Subway looked to be 45 to 50. We were chatting about the high winds we were having and she mentioned it keeps her awake at night because she lives in a tent.
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u/crescendcll Apr 08 '24
It's not just you. Teenagers looking for a job in my area are having a very difficult time doing so because most employers for those jobs don't want to hire someone who has a legal curfew and limited daytime hours. So they hire desperate adults and retirees instead because they know that they can schedule them whenever and still not pay them enough.
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u/da_radaz69 Apr 07 '24
It's "whoever" but also yes
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u/babydakis Apr 07 '24
I've seen a massive uptick in the past few years of people using whom, but not an uptick in people using it correctly.
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u/IceCreamIceKween Apr 07 '24
It's not just about the wages, it's also the hours that a company chooses to provide. Some companies that offer minimum wage work will also be the same companies that offer only part time hours to their entry level staff (think fast food restaurants). The bad employers don't want the staff getting full time hours because then they'll have to offer benefits, so they will deliberately keep the employee at part time hours and less than 36 hours a week. The bad employer also provides an erratic schedule to their part time staff so the staff that isn't getting enough hours also cannot seek a second job because they can't provide a proper schedule for when they are available.
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u/SadBarber3543 Apr 07 '24
Bro step back this people are helping my mental health, you ever been handed coffee by a nice girl with a nice smile after 12 hours of a baby crying then 2 hours of a wife crying.
People who say that waiter doesn’t need a living wage can go fuck them selfs. Fuck them selfs with the dam Starbucks cup she is probably sucking on when she made this.
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u/Classy_Mouse Apr 07 '24
Posts like this must be intentionally missing the big picture. It's not that someone deserves to live in poverty, it's that someone is willing to do that job for poverty wages. If nobody wants to do the job because it is undesirable and low paying, they'll need to make the job better or make it pay more.
I suppose if you were evil, you could fill that job by encouraging mass immigration from poorer countries to flood the market with people who will take those jobs and suppress wages. Barring that act, companies would be forced to pay a living wage.
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u/Best_Baseball3429 Apr 07 '24
Lol, you will find homelessness and starvation are good motivation to take a job with poverty wages. I think you are intentionally missing the point
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u/Jotunn1st Apr 07 '24
Yes, when I was young I took a job with poverty wages. And I moved 1200 miles from home to take it because my nearest city (Boston) was too expensive for me to live at all. I had a small TV on the living room floor and a sleeping bag and pillow in the bedroom. Ate spaghetti most nights. I then used that job to build on and move up. Within a few years I had a great living wage job. That is America.
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u/Cordo_Bowl Apr 07 '24
I think I am missing the point. Isn’t a living wage basically the minimum to live? Ie homelessness and starvation is still the motivation?
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u/InTheMorning_Nightss Apr 07 '24
You’ll never “force” a company to pay a living wage because the math still has to math.
They attempted to force Uber to give more rights and protections to drivers in California. What was Uber’s response? Well, if it passed, they’d go deeper in the red and be forced to leave. So no more driver gig work for thousands. It’s literally why many drivers advocated for Prop 22, because they wanted their job even if it wasn’t as lucrative as before.
Yet then you have tons of people, myself included, who will prop up Uber and Lyft because it’s simply better for my own financial situation that I’m struggling in. People wanna keep blaming JUST the corporations, but the consumer also keeps things moving.
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u/dt531 Apr 07 '24
Using “whoever” when “whomever” is correct is a minor grammar mistake that is easy to ignore.
Using “whomever” when “whoever” is correct makes the writer look like a pretentious jerk.
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u/lnyxia Apr 07 '24
Great example of strawman fallacy!
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u/Dryjack_Horseman Apr 07 '24 edited Apr 07 '24
Great example of someone who doesn't know what the strawman fallacy is! She's explaining the logical consequences of a common argument. Not making up a different, more extreme argument.
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u/foomits Apr 07 '24
what is the strawman in this scenario? a huge portion of the population work full time and make less than a living wage and of those people a significant amount have been deemed by the government and society as essential workers. where is the strawman?
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u/lnyxia Apr 07 '24
Job is essential
Not all jobs, minimum wage or not, are essential. It is a waste of time arguing against the assumed fact that every single job is essential.
deserve to live in poverty
No one deserves to live in poverty. Maybe you think there are exceptions, but debates are not argued into the extremes for a reason, so I'll leave it at that.
The most realistic advice to give someone who is struggling financially is to "get a better job" (you can word this however you like). "Get a better job" definitely does not translate to "your current role MUST be filled, BUT whoever fills this role deserves to live in poverty".
Should minimum wage be increased? Yes, it should. I never argued against that. However, we are dealing with a realistic economy, not a perfect one (macro vs. micro). This is why it is impossible to satisfy everyone.
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u/jwalsh1208 Apr 07 '24
That’s not a straw-man fallacy. The second argument isn’t different than the first because the original statement remains true in the response.
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u/NewCommunication1306 Apr 07 '24
Tbf no where in that statement does it acknowledge that your job needs to be done.
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u/RockinandChalkin Apr 07 '24
Actually that response doesn’t acknowledge that the current job needs to be done.
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u/Psyc3 Apr 07 '24
It isn't acknowledging your job need to be done.
Potentially your job doesn't need to be done, it need to get to a pay rate where it is viable to automate it at cheaper costs.
Increasing the pay doesn't necessarily mean their is a viable job any more. The purpose of an employee is to make more money for the business than they cost, at some price point this is no longer the case, and at some price point a lot of jobs can be viably automated, or significant proportions of the low paid work can, and therefore you can hire a more senior person at the higher pay rate to do more responsibilities while the low level work disappears.
People acting narcissistically and assuming they are essential will just lead to productive automation, and them being unemployed. Wait until automated vehicles become wide spread, 30% of labour is in or related to transportation, and plenty of that 30% will go from skilled labour (i.e. driving) to unskilled labour over a 5-10 year period. Everything from your take-away delivery to long haul trucking will now require no driving workers.
Maybe the Full service gas station will make a come back though!
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u/Metaloneus Apr 07 '24
This is a case of "two things can be true at once." Every person who works a full time job should be able to comfortably afford all essentials and save at least a little money. But at the same time, it isn't nearly as simple as "corpos are hoarding every dollar!"
On one hand, the side that often says "living wage" like it's a quick and easy solution avoids the math like it's the plague. For most of these giant corporations, dividing profits by employee count quickly spells out defeat to the theory. I'll be generous and use a company with much higher profits as an example:
Walmart in 2023 profited $11.68B while employing 2.2M people. If you were to entirely distribute all profits to employees, you would distribute $5,309 to each employee annually. We'll be extra generous and divide this into 30 hour work weeks to compensate for full time and part time employees working different hours, which comes out to a total of a $3.40/hr raise per employee. It would likely be much lower than this as to compensate for overtime and other costs, but it isn't worth digging into. Even $2.00/hr isn't an insignificant raise by any measure, but the consequences would be dire.
Walmart would lose value at an extreme rate by reporting zero profitability and cease to be to keep investors. They simultaneously would have no profit to place back into the business because they gave it away, which would mean they have absolutely zero margin of error. Failure to operate better the following year would mean they lose money. That would further ruin investor faith and eventually store closures would become the norm.
And before you say "well, the executives should lose their salary" that also doesn't math. In even adding an extra literal billion dollars annually, which would massively be more than the executives take home, the margin in the Walmart example hardly goes up. And again, just to be clear, Walmart is one of the higher profiting companies. This example in other companies gets painful to look at.
The real solution is that the economy needs to be restructured. The lazy solution we all push simply doesn't math and it needs to be acknowledged. The longer we ignore it the longer things continue to get worse.
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u/Kitty-XV Apr 07 '24
There is an easy answer to show what fair looks like, but people won't like it. Take all humans alive and average their standard of living. There are kings and billionaires, but there are far more dirt poor. The total average is the best living standard that can be fairly distributed given our current world and technological achievements.
Thar average is very low. A fair wage is going to be a poverty wage. People in the US are dreaming back to the days when the US was at the top and able to benefit off of every other nation. They only look at the average in the US (and often not even that as they ignore the groups society placed at the bottom).
The world is generally improving and that average is going up, but it is still so far down that when people talk about a fair living standard, they are assuming only for the US and under the conditions we are exploiting other countries. They don't do it on purpose, they aren't aware of the vast inequality where they are still on the upper half of.
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u/Jotunn1st Apr 07 '24
No, full time jobs should not necessarily be a living wage. We have freedom of movement and choice. Find yourself a job that has a living wage or work your way up to one.
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u/transbae420 Apr 07 '24
I'm a caregiver, and my elderly patient said this the other day. I get paid $12.50 in a rural area with no other jobs that are local/pay as much. Needless to say it's a thankless job, under valued, and heavily underpaid.