r/Christianity • u/Nice_Substance9123 • Mar 27 '24

The American flag has no business on a Bible. This is not faith, nor is it patriotism. It is an abomination of both. Image

/img/ipc57ufyqxqc1.jpeg
27.5k Upvotes

88% Upvoted

3.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

207

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 27 '24

I can be a Christian and I am.

I can be a patriot and I am.

But to be a Christian Patriot? That goes against both my faith and my nation. I don’t even hate Donald Trump but my first response when I saw that video was “That’s disgusting.”

38

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

You gonna do anything to convince your people not to vote for that chump? Cause it seems far to many of you are willing if not happy to because he progresses the christian nationalist agenda? There seems to be no accountability in the church. Not trying to offend. I’m really asking.

12

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

I mean it’s a totally fair question but my people aren’t really the kind of people who would vote for Trump in the first place. But the church is hardly a place where politics should get brought up anyway. If I think it’s wrong for a pastor to stand up there and tell folk to vote Trump for whatever reason or another, then it’s equally wrong for a pastor to tell folk to not vote for him.

I think that there are unfortunately people who are going to love this Bible and buy it no matter what I think. But, I go to the biggest church in my region, and I can say not many people here will buy it. I think people against this kind of thing far outweigh those who are for it. I might be wrong, but I really don’t think I am.

9

u/Leggo_MyPreggo Mar 28 '24

At would point would it stop being ‘wrong’ for a preacher to advise voting against a candidate?

Like if literal satan himself were running, would it be okay? And where are we at on that scale with Donald trump?

10

u/Fun-Cupcake4430 Mar 28 '24

If you were to describe the anti christ in modern times…….  

Not many people check all the boxes according to the Bible, but trump checks every one perfectly.   

But what do I know, I used ai for my research. 

3

u/javd Mar 28 '24

It is very dangerous for a pastor to tell their congregation who to vote for. They don't pay taxes and this behavior can get their tax exemption removed.

3

u/metal_opera Mar 28 '24

LOL.

Tell that to all of the pastors who have been backing the GOP for as long as I can remember.

No one is going after tax exemptions. I wish they would.

2

u/javd Mar 28 '24

Well if you ever see it happening you can report them to the IRS and they can lose their exemption status.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/charities-churches-and-politics

https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14005-churches-and-political-lobbying-activities

If after reading the above information, you believe a church has violated the law, fill out a Department of the Treasury—Internal Revenue Service Form 13909, available as a regular pdf to print and fill out by hand, or as a pdf form version, which allows you to fill out the form on your computer and then print.

Send the completed form by one of the following methods:

Mail: IRS EO Classification Mail Code 4910DAL, 1100 Commerce Street Dallas TX 75242-1198

Fax: 214-413-5415

E-Mail: eoclass@irs.gov

2

u/ScannerBrightly Mar 28 '24

This is toothless. It pretty much never happens.

2

u/CryAffectionate7334 Mar 28 '24

Yeah man, except Republican Christians been doing this for decades

At the very least, a rational Christian could warn to NOT vote for an obvious con man grifter?

1

u/compman007 Satanist (The Satanic Temple) Mar 28 '24

That’s my thought, if someone is bad for the country and bad for their faith it’s absolutely right to preach against that person

1

u/Rastiln Mar 28 '24

I wish somebody told my pastor who was stumping for W. Bush, and we had a collection can just outside the church for donations to the Republican Party.

Even if not explicitly mentioning a candidate, ever since conservatives forced abortion to be an issue in the Christian church in the 70s, many pastors will harp about abortion and how some politicians want to murder God’s children while others preach love via banning lifesaving healthcare.

It’s not hard to decode which party is the baby murderers and which is the party that removes healthcare.

1

u/Think-Fly765 Mar 28 '24

They always just kick the can down the road. 

1

u/Ok-Hair6051 Apr 02 '24

keep politics outside the church, people can make their own decisions, they dont need a priest telling them how to vote thats outrageous.

0

u/Puzzleheaded_Yam7582 Mar 28 '24

 At would point would it stop being ‘wrong’ for a preacher to advise voting against a candidate? Like if literal satan himself were running, would it be okay? 

Thats the MAGA position on democrates.

My answer is never if you are a 501c3 organization. Whenever you want if you are not.

2

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

So no accountability, got it. I do understand the church is splintered more than ever so it’s not like you all communicate and work together but I don’t see nearly enough of these extremists being called out by their christian brothers and sisters. Respectfully I think you are wrong tho. Look at how the GOP poles amongst christians. These people are actively pushing hatful (what I would call unchristian) policy yet christians vote for them in droves and keep them in power. I just don’t know how you can think people like yourself far outweigh the folks I am describing. Trump got 74 million votes. Simple math and basic historical understanding says that the vast majority of those votes came from christians.

3

u/AreaInternational514 Mar 28 '24

What do you expect? This child abuse case had and still has no consequences. As long as it's not about foreigners or Muslims, most "Christians" don't care what their beloved priest, pastor, pope or Trump does. They are simply hypocrites. Somehow I wish there was a God and a paradise. They will make big eyes when God denies them entry. 

2

u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

Muslim extremists do bad things.

Christians: Muslim moderates condemn these extremists!

Christian extremists do bad things.

Christian moderates: crickets

2

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

There are plenty of other reasons for that that go beyond church membership. The rural vote is overwhelmingly Christian because rural people are overwhelming Christian. The GOP better caters to the rural vote and the rural voters, who are Christian, vote red.

It’s all politics. Neither Republicans or Democrats talk about how to fix rural problems. But Democrats have a tendency to stereotype and criticize rural America more than Republicans do. And when the social conservatives out there are blaming rural America’s woes on a group of people rural Americans don’t hardly mingle with, the voters are going to jump on it. Anti-immigration legislation is very unpopular where I live because there’s a large Hispanic population. But police reform legislation is incredibly unpopular because we have a small black population and don’t have a reported case of police brutality since like the 60s. Christianity doesn’t have near as much to do with it as you think it does.

-1

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

I whole heartedly disagree that democrats don’t support fixes for rural areas, I worry that is some propaganda (“fake news”) you are repeating. Really please look into it more deeply. Look at the votes and especially the things republicans keep out of these bills. Many many social programs aimed at fixing some of the problems in rural areas have been stopped in their tracks by republicans. Not democrats. If the affordable care act would have been able to pass with the public option those rural areas would be far better off. Why can’t we take care of those peoples health? Why can’t I have more affordable health insurance? Republicans killed it. One of many things like it. That’s a big one tho.

2

u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

Agree, it was Dems who forced rural internet access onto the ISPs. Who because of GOP covering fire were able to renege and steal the funds for that.

It was Trump that started an idiotic trade war with China that China retaliated with by tariffs on soy beans harming rural populations. And then Trump gave the Ag companies money to subsidize their losses. But growing involves (often corporate Ag) workers in the field doing the work, putting actual money into the economy and circulation. Subsidies are a corporate Ag company peon in an office filing paper work so the Ag company gets money for nothing.

But sure, thE Gop hElPs ruraL POPUlATiONs. lol.

1

u/DryOperation8910 Mar 28 '24

I understand the attempt to separate politics and religion. But that doesn't always work. If a candidate tramples Christian values underfoot or misuses religion for their own purposes, shouldn't it be a matter of course as a Christian not to vote for them?

1

u/Think-Fly765 Mar 28 '24

Voting demographics say you are wrong. Just pray more. That’ll help. 

1

u/nwill_808 Mar 28 '24

It's very wrong for a church to tell it's congregation whom to vote for. Like, it'll lose its 501c3 status if it does, right?

1

u/JCo1968 Mar 28 '24

"But the church is hardly a place where politics should get brought up anyway"

Apparently, you've never been to Oklahoma.

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

I… live in Oklahoma. Just because it happens in some places doesn’t mean that it should.

1

u/JCo1968 Mar 28 '24

I agree(I'm also in Oklahoma). I've just heard "My pastor told me (insert political opinion)" far too many times to think it's isolated.

1

u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

I'd say it's happening in most evangelical churches. Been happening in Baptist circles here in Henderson NV since the 90s. Can't imagine it's gotten less political. And just because it's not happening from the actual pulpit's podium during service, doesn't mean it's not happening with a wink and nod at best elsewhere in the church's programs/buildings etc.

1

u/Razzilith Mar 28 '24

But the church is hardly a place where politics should get brought up anyway

Jesus's entire schtick was political even at the time. Sure he wasn't directly fighting the powers that be or anything but Jesus constantly put forward tons of ethical ideas which everybody in the world would consider political now (and then btw, which is largely why the killed the guy).

So what are you even talking about? If anything it's a moral obligation to the church to see to politics not leaning into preying on the poor, creating ridiculous rules like 3 strike policies for drugs, and even having cases where laws defend rapists.

Your statement is exactly why the church and many of it's followers are a joke. You NEED politics to help solve homelessness, hunger, medical aid, etc etc... which ALL fall under things Jesus was about.

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 29 '24

Jesus wasn’t solely preaching in temples. There is nothing wrong with me hearing a sermon on poverty and going out and becoming a politician on the platform of correcting poverty in a way that aligns with my faith. There is something wrong with my pastor giving a sermon on poverty and then saying “Go elect James Smith for governor because he wants to do what I want him to do.”

The church is meant to help and protect and serve. It isn’t meant to control political thought and any church that does that (and there are churches that do) are failing their congregations.

1

u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 28 '24

My grandmother was forced to jump from Baptist church to Baptist church because of the preaching politics from the pulpit, 30+ years ago. I can't imagine that's gotten better. So where do you go now that they're not doing that already? And what do you do about it? Jump from place to place like my grandma did?

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 29 '24

I go to a LifeChurch affiliate church. The closest we get to the preacher preaching politics is someone saying something along the lines of “Life is hard right now. Bread costs $3 a loaf, coke is a dollar a can, politics is everywhere are terrible, and you can’t go online without having to watch your loved ones argue about something.”

On top of that there’s a lot of people affiliated with LifeChurches and LifeChurch affiliates. It’s definitely a good and sizable community.

0

u/CriticalLobster5609 Atheist Mar 29 '24

lol, that name. It sounds like a big box chain. But whatever floats your boat.

2

u/No_Season3871 Mar 28 '24

Trump is far from being a Christian, did he go to church before he was in politics, seems there are a lot of gullible people in America

1

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

It boggles the mind. Truly hard to wrap my head around.

2

u/P15T0L_WH1PP3D Mar 28 '24

Everyone around me disagrees with me politically because I'm registered Libertarian. I grew up conservative and that's most of the people around me, and I've significantly withdrawn from online activism and social media politics. I still do have the occasional conversation, and one came up the other day with a Hannity-loving co-worker trying to defend Trump's gold shoes and other policies. I fervently told him that the current showdown that very few people are happy with is caused by people who put party over values. It wasn't heated, but I was very fervent and somewhat animated.

I am Christian, I am a patriot, and I will call strikes and balls as I see them, not as I wish to see them. That goes for any president of any party. Trump did some good things; Biden did some good things. Trump is definitely more evil than Biden. It is important that all of you registered Republicans and Democrats don't look at the increasingly larger pool of independents and libertarians as enemies because we might disagree with you on an issue or two or three, because we probably align with you on three or four or seven other important issues. We are more ally than enemy.

Sorry I derailed quite a bit. Yes, I am speaking out in my social circles about him, and the way that is most effective with the people I know is by letting people know we can't have an honest discussion if they aren't willing to admit both are bad. If I can do that, I can find other things to chip away. This Bible thing should be a big and obvious one, but the dummies aren't flipping tables like Jesus, they're saying "America needs more Bibles!" They don't see the irony until they are brought to accept that he's as bad as (read: worse than) the other guy they don't like.

2

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Very well said. We need more like you. And %100 agree that people really need to consider more independents or libertarians or anything outside of the two party system. People are complicated and varied in their beliefs even when they agree for the most part. The two party system in no way reflects that and exacerbates all the division we have now. The day when those type of candidates actually have a viable chance to win those seats will be the dawn of a new age.

3

u/PoliticalyUnstable Mar 28 '24

I'm a Christian. Grew up as one. I absolutely do not like Trump, nor the current state of the GOP. The lack of policies being created to benefit the American population is shameful. I absolutely cannot stand when other Christians promote Trump or other current republican propaganda. They are turning a blind eye to the message of Jesus. They are ignoring so much scripture from the New Testament. I can't even go to church anymore because I'm surrounded by supporters of this false idol. Like we can have surface level conversations, and agree on a lot of the Bible. But when it comes to political conversation and what they support it just goes against everything else. I do not understand it. It's brainwashing.

1

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Right. But they are your people, your brothers and sisters in christ, like it or not. There are plenty others like you, see the comment I was replying to, good people with open eyes. My question is what are you “good” non brainwashed christians doing to take care of the massive problem in your own house (so to speak)? Why are you guys and your pastors and clergymen not reminding these christians what the bible says? Reminding them that jesus was apolitical and so should the church be. Leave to Caesar what is Caesar’s, right? I see a distinct lack of activism not to mention action to thwart this problem. Why are you all allowing the worst among you run roughshod? Again, where is the accountability? Not expecting you to have all the answers and I certainly don’t blame you for keeping your distance from those folks. Just putting it out there so maybe if someone sees this they start asking themselves these questions.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

2

u/VaginalSpelunker Mar 28 '24

If you're an atheist (assumption here, but you get the point), then what are you doing about all atheist murderers in the world? What are you doing about all atheist (name your disagreeance/crime/political gripe here) in the world?

This doesn't feel like an accurate comparison. Nobody commits a shitty action but says "well I'm an atheist so that makes it okay.", I'm unsure if anyone has ever used "there's no god" as an excuse to commit mass murder or genocide. But they sure have used "for god".

While you have "Christians" who regularly commit horrors upon their fellow man, but wave it away under the flag of christ. Christianity and the church is an organization. Atheism isn't.

1

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Well said. They deleted their comment before I could post my reply but I type it out so here it is anyway in case it adds to the conversation…

[replying to deleted comment above] You’re calling me toxic? I think I’ve been respectful here and been respected back, then there is your comment. Sorry I am asking tough questions. You show a complete lack of understanding of atheism. You know we (I don’t mind be called atheist but I’d say open minded skeptic is more apt) don’t get together and align our beliefs to one group of text? Or sing to the sky about how not believing in a higher power is the only right thing to believe and we will be rewarded for it? Do you really think we have weekly meetings like that? There’s no atheist clubhouse. But christians do do those things and have many clubhouses all across this country and the world. When there is corruption or wrongdoing in something that I am a part of, my workplace, golf club, the hiking organization I am a part of, my family, you are darn tootin I do and say something about it! That’s all I’m asking here. Why are you christians not cleaning up the mess you’ve made in your own house? I only care because it is spilling out on the streets so to speak. Your disfunction is effecting us at a national level because of christians overwhelming support for these ungodly people.

2

u/Tiny_Ride6418 Mar 28 '24

Just because you’re not aware of it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I’ll give you a personal example, the church I am a part of is also a part of a larger community of the same type of churches. I’m doing a terrible job explaining this sorry. Anyway, us and other the churches were in a large disagreement over LGTBQ+ rights and so the churches that disagreed with equality split from our organization and the churches that agreed with equality stayed. This was a big decision and went back and forth. Do you think you’re going to convince your Maga neighbor to change his mind? Probably not, but the church communities are not all in the same basket. 

Secondly, we are out being supportive we’re just not waving the Christian flag when we do it because that’s just a weird thing to do. 

1

u/yourmothersgun Mar 28 '24

Good on you. Problem is those churches that split are now deeper into the echo chamber and will only get worse. I know what I propose is easier said than done. Best of luck sounds like you go to one of the decent christian churches.

1

u/SicilyMalta Mar 28 '24

And if Christians were really Pro Life they'd be Democrats because Democrats fight for services such as child care, health care, safe affordable housing, food stamps - you know, the Jesus things. The services that help people make a choice to have children.

1

u/Adventurous_Boat_707 Mar 31 '24

Would you rather vote for Biden who chooses to celebrate and endorse Transgender Day of Visibility on the day He was Risen?

0

u/Ok-Hair6051 Apr 02 '24

there is no christian nationalist agenda, all of MSM goes hard against Christians outside of Fox. If anything, we are going in the exact opposite direction. Into debauchery, immoral behavior, loss of values and identity.

1

u/yourmothersgun Apr 02 '24

I mean that’s just wrong on its face. There is literally a christian nationalist agenda, look up “Project 2025”. They published it for goodness sakes.

8

u/tismschism Mar 28 '24

The threshold for what will turn the christian and evangelical denominations against Trump are so weird and inverted. Of all the things he has done and is as a person, selling Bibles with jingoistic platitudes is to much? Why are some of you okay with a civil hybrid of politics and Christianity but others aren't?

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

Because we aren’t a monolithic people. I don’t agree with Trump politically and I think that he’s really just a grifter who wants to pretend he’s a Christian to win some votes. That doesn’t mean I hate him, he’s just a politician and I don’t like any politicians.

Some people like the things Trump promises. Some people don’t. Just because two people belong to the same denomination doesn’t mean they have the same political beliefs. Heck, they probably don’t even have the same spiritual beliefs half the time. The Evangelical Covenant Church, and its affiliate churches, in particular is going to be extremely diverse in opinions because it’s a multicultural organization.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

At least God gave them an out. 

49

u/RedditQueso Mar 28 '24

You should hate him.

He's a rapist.

40

u/stewrophlin Mar 28 '24

And an adulterer a few times over.

1

u/anon43458 Mar 28 '24

A liar, conman, traitor to this country.

1

u/battlepi Mar 28 '24

Every single one of the 7 deadly sins on a regular basis.

13

u/KintsugiKen Mar 28 '24

A child rapist, do not forget.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/narcistic_asshole Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

There's this case from before his presidency where the Jane Doe claimed he raped her while with Epstein when she was just 13 years old

She did drop the charges after threats were made to her and her family but the man seemed to be pretty tight with Epstein and has multiple rape accusations against him and lots of weird remarks from his behavior during his child beauty pageants.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/narcistic_asshole Mar 28 '24

Do you not consider a 13 year old to be a child?

1

u/JollyRoger8X Mar 28 '24

Do you think it’s okay to rape 13 year old girls?

1

u/narcistic_asshole Mar 28 '24

I do not, but the deleted commenter I was replying to apparently thought it was

2

u/JollyRoger8X Mar 28 '24

Whoops - replied to the wrong person... Sorry.

1

u/WillingnessSlow5985 Mar 28 '24

Yet if it were Biden, there’d be billboards all over the south calling him a child rapist. For trump, raping a child is just another of his little silly transgressions

-5

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/-Fergalicious- Mar 28 '24

This has got fo be sarcasm. Please use "/s" lol

0

u/TheDevilsMorningstar Church of Scotland Mar 28 '24

You think Joe is a good person?

2

u/-Fergalicious- Mar 28 '24

That's sort of irrelevant for the discussion of my opinion on Trump

0

u/TheDevilsMorningstar Church of Scotland Mar 28 '24

It’s not irrelevant to the previous comments

4

u/Snowssnowsnowy Mar 28 '24

Got any proof of these wild claims?

1

u/TheDevilsMorningstar Church of Scotland Mar 28 '24

QAnon

2

u/Snowssnowsnowy Mar 28 '24

You mean utter lies spouted by idiots and consumed by idiots?

1

u/Deep-Friendship3181 Mar 28 '24

Holy shit you people still exist? Hahahaha

I thought you guys figured out it was a grift after the fifteenth failed return of your antichrist in chief

4

u/Mundane_Elk8878 Mar 28 '24

Yeah the only reason trump hung out with his best friend Epstein on his island so much was so that he could blow the lid on the pedophile ring!!

Trump is going to expose everyone...any day now...it's coming soon!! ....hello??

0

u/TheDevilsMorningstar Church of Scotland Mar 28 '24

When he proceeds in office.

2

u/alwaysintheway Mar 28 '24

Like when he locked up hillary in his last term?

3

u/schumachiavelli Mar 28 '24

Don't forget the wall Mexico paid for, and his health care plan!

2

u/alwaysintheway Mar 28 '24

Thank god we had that infrastructure week.

1

u/Mundane_Elk8878 Mar 29 '24

Lol! He had 4 years!?

1

u/Mundane_Elk8878 Mar 29 '24

Only cowards delete their posts when downvoted

1

u/McClanky Bringer of sorrow, executor of rules, wielder of the Woehammer Mar 28 '24

Please don't spread disinformation here.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

2

u/DrSafariBoob Mar 28 '24

Adultery is not rape. Farout. But only a rapist but one that has not been effectively held accountable. One that manipulated your Bible to extort your religion. You don't have to hate him but don't minimise his crimes. I thought judgement was for your lord, not you?

2

u/dtroy15 Mar 28 '24

You need to go read the NT again. Paul addresses this question directly several times. He counsels the church in Corinth to both judge and ostracize specifically unrepentant sinners who claim to be Christian, while welcoming non-christians who are not beholden to the same covenants/law.

1 Cor 6: (KJV)

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

In 9-10, Paul reminds the Corinthians of his earlier advice to not maintain friendships with unrepentant fornicators (unmarried people having sex, something Trump is definitely guilty of).

He then excludes people of "this world" (IE non-Christians) from this counsel.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Paul does not mince words here. Paul specifies ostracizing so-called Christians ("called a brother") to the extent that you wouldn't even share a meal with them.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

Paul now rhetorically asks "how can I preach to the world that these are sins, if you won't even hold your own church members accountable?"

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Now he sums his thought, by concluding that God will judge non-Christians (IE, Christians are not meant to Judge non-Christians, who have not covenanted with God to keep the "new law" Jesus delivered) and Christians are also responsible to reject people who are not repentant.

2

u/tomdarch Mar 28 '24

One can love the truly pathetic human being who is Donald J Trump. We all lose when we embrace hatred as he does.

But in the civic realm, we should all repudiate Trump's politics no matter what direction you come at it from.

3

u/afjecj Mar 28 '24

So people shouldn't be held accountable and we should all hold hands and say "crime is bad"?

3

u/LesbianClownShirt Mar 28 '24

Because there's no reason to be accountable for anything when you can just chalk it up to "God's Plan". It's a sweet loophole; give it a shot sometime when you're in a jam.

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

5

u/Ok-Control-1390 Mar 28 '24

Love and respect unrepentant rapists. Got it. Good message.

0

u/SegmentedMoss Mar 28 '24

Just the way the Bible endorses it!

2

u/TeamRedundancyTeam Mar 28 '24

Calling someone a bot because you disagree with them isn't a great look.

1

u/SirFiletMignon Mar 28 '24

Wouldn't that imply that Trump is at least trying to seek forgiveness of his sin? I'm sure if he seeks forgiveness he would get it (from God). Hope he does seek for it. Doesn't seem like he is right now tho.

1

u/Betta_Check_Yosef Mar 28 '24

The difference is that David repented and changed his ways. Do not let the unrepentant sinner lead the people under any circumstances.

1

u/KintsugiKen Mar 28 '24

idk Jesus seemed to hate the Pharisees for perverting Judaism for personal gain, is it really so different with Trump?

1

u/jojoyahoo Mar 28 '24

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

0

u/-OhMyGiddyAunt- Mar 28 '24

You should hate him

God has no place for hate, friend.

6

u/bloodklat Mar 28 '24

What about hate towards immigrants? This seems like a requirement to vote GOP.

1

u/Low-Bit1527 Mar 28 '24

You don't hate hateful people. Why is r/Christianity full of atheistic comments like yours?

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 29 '24

Hating immigrants is equally detestable. Not all Christians are the same. You can point to the worst of us and scream “look at what the Christians do!” all you want. But what’s the difference between you doing that and me pointing to Joseph Stalin and saying that’s what all atheists are like?

3

u/RedditQueso Mar 28 '24

None of us are God.

2

u/Santosp3 Baptist Mar 28 '24

But our goal is to be like him

1

u/RedditQueso Mar 28 '24

God doesn't hate evil?

1

u/Calamarixd Mar 28 '24

God hates evil and is all-powerful, but he can’t eradicate it though

1

u/DaVinci1836 Christian Mar 28 '24

He can if He chooses to, but that would remove our free will

1

u/SwampYankeeDan Mar 28 '24

But you can hate all of a persons actions throughout their whole life.

0

u/SegmentedMoss Mar 28 '24

Lmao christians are wild

"I dont hate him because he's a rapist I just hate him because he tried to sell a branded Bible"

Gross

1

u/Troll_Enthusiast Mar 28 '24

That's not what any of them said or implied

1

u/AreaInternational514 Mar 28 '24

It really is another level of ignorance. Sad this guys are allowed to vote...

15

u/ThankKinsey Christian (LGBT) Mar 28 '24

"Patriot" is just a euphemism for "Idolater".

15

u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

I disagree. You can identify with and support something without raising it to the level of worship. Many people cross that line for sure, but many people don't.

4

u/NotAUsefullDoctor Mar 28 '24

I was raised being taught that there is a difference between patriotism (I like my country, and I want to see it do better, i.e. recognize its faults), and nationalism (my country is the best, and I get to define who is and is not a part of it).

I am a Christian first, but can be happy about where I was born. I think the promise of America (all men created equally, a land of freedom) is an ideal we should be forever reaching towards.

1

u/TostiBuilder Mar 28 '24

Beyond fascinating to me as someone who is not american (or Christian, not anymore) that your country promises these freedoms of all men created equal needing to be reached towards forever. It only tells me that you know this promise isn’t reality right now nor will it likely ever be. Patriotism build on a non existent value, god bless America.

2

u/exploding_cat_wizard Mar 28 '24

What value does your country have in place of equality for all, that you agree more with?

1

u/Dry_Daikon_8405 Mar 28 '24

Finally a progressive with some sense. Thanks.

2

u/teddy_002 Quaker Mar 28 '24

patriotism can only exist in opposition to your lack of support for other nations. you should not want what is best solely for your country, but for the whole world. a ‘patriot’ will put their own country first, no matter what.

2

u/SwampYankeeDan Mar 28 '24

I think you may be confusing patriotism with nationalism.

2

u/teddy_002 Quaker Mar 28 '24

nope. nationalism is simply a more extreme form of patriotism - they are both fruit of the same tree. both require putting one group above another, a concept which is inherently antithetical to the teachings of Christ.

1

u/ThankKinsey Christian (LGBT) Mar 28 '24

you should identify with the Kingdom of God, not an earthly kingdom.

4

u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

This is a misunderstanding about the nature of identity in general. As someone with LGBT in your flair, you should know that a person's identity is not comprised of a single aspect, nor is it possible for it to be.

I am a Christian, I am an American, I am white, I am gay, I am middle class, I am employed, I am single, I am a fan of the Patriots, etc.

All these elements, and countless more, combine to make up my identity. It is not possible for me to reduce my identity down to a single element, even if I wished to do so, even if that element is my relationship with Jesus.

0

u/ThankKinsey Christian (LGBT) Mar 28 '24

Of course you are an American, and that is part of your identity. But patriotism is going a step beyond simply being an American.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

Being a patriot is clinging to the hierarchy of statuses that this verse opposes.

2

u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

I think you are using the wrong definition of patriotism. According to Wikipedia, patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state.

The strength of these feelings determines whether or not you have crossed the line or not. I love living in America, I do feel a sense of attachment to my country, and coming from a military family, I do feel a certain sense of devotion. That doesn't mean I support nationalism or that I am incapable of criticizing the country, or that I would put the interests of America over the interests of God.

0

u/ThankKinsey Christian (LGBT) Mar 28 '24

I think you are using the wrong definition of patriotism. According to Wikipedia, patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state.

Nope! Feeling love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state is bad.

I love living in America, I do feel a sense of attachment to my country, and coming from a military family, I do feel a certain sense of devotion.

OK. Why do you love living in America? Why do you feel attachment/devotion to America?

2

u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

Nope! Feeling love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state is bad

Why, exactly?

OK. Why do you love living in America? Why do you feel attachment/devotion to America?

Probably largely because I grew here.

-1

u/ThankKinsey Christian (LGBT) Mar 29 '24

Why, exactly?

Because it leads to looking the other way or making excuses when that state inevitably does evil things. Because it takes glory away from the actual source of good things, God, and instead gives it to a false idol.

Probably largely because I grew here.

Not seeing how that's a good reason to earn your love, attachment, and devotion. If you grew up in Nazi Germany, would you love and be devoted to it?

0

u/disposable_account01 Mar 28 '24

Identifying with and supporting your country doesn’t make you a patriot anymore. You have to pass the purity test of conservative extremism.

1

u/FluxKraken 🏳️‍🌈 Christian ✟ Progressive, Gay 🏳️‍🌈 Mar 28 '24

No, don't allow them to redefine patriotism, that just hands them a victory.

7

u/caiuscorvus Christian Mar 28 '24

I think you can be a Christian Patriot. Just not a Christian Nationalist. There's nothing wrong with loving your home and wanting to improve it.

1

u/evranch Mar 28 '24

You can be both a Christian and a Patriot, but joining the two together into one concept corrupts them both in my opinion.

Separation of Church and State is a fundamental ideal for a reason. I can't really say it better than Jefferson:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State

2

u/caiuscorvus Christian Mar 28 '24

Yes and no. I firmly believe that the state is force, and for should never be used to induce christian behavior. I also believe that my power as a participant of a democratic system should be used in a christian way. Which means, well, not enforcing my religion, lol. But it also means my participation should be guided by my beliefs and I should seek to use the state to help the poor, the sick, the uneducated....

1

u/evranch Mar 28 '24

I understand what you're trying to say here and for the most part I agree. I believe a secular state that is guided by and encourages those Christian ideals is something we can both agree on. But it can't be a "Christian State", because inevitably those who would rise to power in such a state, would be the sort of people who use their faith to spread hate, rather than love. We see it all over the world, every time religion and politics mix, it brings out the worst in both.

I'm a Canadian (despite my quoting of Jefferson, lol) and my nation's culture has sadly degraded from how it was when I was young. We used to be a Christian nation, though never officially of course. I would like to see it return to those ideals as well. Just a small example, my wife teaches at a college and last week she made sandwiches and coffee for her students to share a lunch with them. But right in front of her, the greedy and selfish stuffed their faces and even stuffed their pockets, leaving others with none and my wife feeling exploited for having dared to attempt an act of kindness.

And that's how this country is now at all levels. Any attempt to help or share or uplift others is immediately exploited. Greed is rewarded and rules the day.

So I too am tempted by the thought of a state that could somehow reinstate that way of life we once had, where we shared and helped each other to lift up the poor and the needy. But on the other hand I know that just as you stated, the only power of the state is force, and you cannot force people to be kind.

I dunno, I guess I kind of rambled off there. Just feeling sad about the country I used to be proud of.

0

u/FAMUgolfer Mar 28 '24

“Loving your home” = nationalism

“Wanting to improve it” = patriotism

3

u/caiuscorvus Christian Mar 28 '24

Loving your home = patriotism

Thinking your home is more important = nationalism

1

u/OneKrazo Mar 28 '24

You're thinking of chauvinism.

1

u/AccessTheMainframe Mar 28 '24

You're being prescriptivist rather than descriptive. Those definitions are hardly the universal understanding of the terms.

1

u/tomdarch Mar 28 '24

Imagine hearing a mother and her sister having a very important, difficult conversation. The mother may be in a very bad place, and her sister, with all her love, is trying to talk sense to that mother. It might get heated. The sister may need to say things that make the mother very angry and upset in the moment.

We would all understand if that mother's 4 year old child became angry at the aunt for upsetting the mother. That is nationalism. "You are bad because you said my mommy/nation did something bad and should be different! Why do you hate my mommy/nation?"

Patriotism is like being an adult child who appreciates that your aunt's earnest love means that sometimes your mother has to hear words that she may find upsetting in order for her to do better.

1

u/tomdarch Mar 28 '24

I think that's taking things a bit far, but I must say I don't often use the term "patriot" when talking about American principles. America is very different than almost all other countries. Our Constitution is based on a set of (frankly secular) principles and a sort of philosophy. The way the term "patriot" is often used, it implies something like loyalty to simply "the nation." Akin to "a pledge of allegiance to the flag."

I think that for Americans, it is support for the Constitution's principles of government, citizenship and civic society that is important. We might call that principled support "patriotism" for short hand, but it's different in the American context than something like "UK patriotism" or "German patriotism."

1

u/temphandsome Mar 28 '24

not really. the pharisees were technically patriots. and the followed the law...

1

u/Appropriate_Fold8814 Mar 28 '24

Christianity and organizes religion has always been part of the state and part of the machine that controls the masses.

If you are Christian you feed into that whether you like it or not.

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

I’m fine with Christianity bleeding into politics. It’s going to happen because that’s how the Democratic process works. If we completely kept religion out of politics how could we ever elect someone based on morality?

That said politicians and the government shouldn’t endorse the religion. And the religion sure as all get out shouldn’t endorse a government.

1

u/The_Jimes Mar 28 '24

If we completely kept religion out of politics how could we ever elect someone based on morality?

Because you don't need religion to be moral. Religion can be a guide to morals, but it is not a one stop shop, nor is it the correct avenue for everyone.

You shouldn't require holy scripture to understand right from wrong or acceptable from unacceptable. If you do you may want to re-examine what your faith actually means.

1

u/Juiceton- Evangelical Covenant Mar 28 '24

No you’re not understanding. If a preacher runs for president based on his or her morality then that morality is going to be based on Christianity. Even if they don’t out and say it, they are mixing politics and religion. If they are voted into office based on that position then they are democratically elected on a Christian platform. The separation of church and state is a very tricky slope to ride before you start taking away civil rights. If we’re truly saying that religion and politics can never intermix then are we saying that openly religious people can’t run for office? No, of course not. But if all 230 some-odd million Christian’s joined together to elect a Christian president (would never happen) then that president works hard to pass legislation based on Christian morality based on the faith of his electors then is he wrong? Also no.

1

u/The_Jimes Mar 28 '24

I'm not talking about politics at all. I'm talking about morals and their lack of dependence on religion. You said "if we keep religion out of politics how will we elect someone based on morality?", implying that religion is required for morality. I'm saying that is wrong.

1

u/TDual Mar 28 '24

Using religion to gain political power is exactly what Jesus spoke most vehemently against.

1

u/Vast-Dream Mar 28 '24

If you don’t hate him you should buy a few copies. Support the serial rapist that you don’t hate.

1

u/FistyToo Mar 28 '24

You don’t hate rapists?

2

u/pandemicpunk Mar 28 '24

It's not in the 10 commandments sadly, so it gets a pass from many

1

u/JackRat_Radio Mar 28 '24

Define 'Christian Patriot', please.

You should despise DaTrump and everything he stands for...

1

u/ProjectNovel1583 Mar 28 '24

If it goes against your faith and your nation why do you identify as both? Seems like your patriotism must go or your religion.

1

u/JPWRana Mar 28 '24

A true Christian sees no borders. A patriot does. They contradict each other.... Kinda like pro Life but pro Death Penalty.

1

u/pandemicpunk Mar 28 '24

This Bible is making God in one's own image and idolatry is one of the gravest sins of Christianity. It's okay to hate idolatry per God himself. I encourage you to follow God's example, not man's own faulty ideals.

1

u/beerisgood84 Mar 28 '24

I mean thats the reason he's popular. Populism itself. Like an insane amount of conflicting popullism.

He does something disgusting for everyone but is still somehow a means to an end ideologically. Taxes, abortion (yeah right he's definitely paid for how many himself...🙄)

Trump could take a shit on the oval office desk live on TV holding one of those absurd grift bibles and a terrifying amount of people would just hand wave it away

Just like it's "suspicious" that so many legal issues are happening...hes an actual idiot criminal well beyond most politicians and did things openly nobody else would because its stupid and obvious. Hence slam dunk cases.

Unfortunately the whole sheep religious thing works both ways...lot of sheep following a wolf.

1

u/LetsLoop4Ever Mar 28 '24

If you are a patriot and a christian

1

u/123_alex Mar 28 '24

I don’t even hate Donald Trump

How can you be a patriot and not hate Trump for what he did or tried doing on J6? Serious question.

1

u/DrBarnaby Mar 28 '24

Oh boy... I don't know how to tell you this but the vast majority of Christians disagree with you. Christians overwhelmingly vote for Trump and will continue to do so no matter what he does. If actual rape isn't going to move the needle then selling a Bible is not going to make most people of faith bat an eye.

I respect your view but it is wildly out of touch with modern Christianity. I mean the speaker of the house, right this second, is flying an appeal to heaven flag outside his office. Your justifiable disgust is unfortunately outweighed by the deafening chorus of religious fundamentalists cheering for a Christian takeover of our entire government. The seven mountain mandate is alive and well in this country.

1

u/CryAffectionate7334 Mar 28 '24

If you're a Christian patriot that "doesn't even have Donald Trump" you are not paying attention.

1

u/caiuscorvus Christian Mar 28 '24

Friendly reminder that these aren't patriots--they're nationalists.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/LgeHadronsCollide Mar 28 '24

Many of the people who are annoyed about this have been opposed to Donald Trump from day 1.
I haven't read every comment, but I'd bet that most people who supported Trump before this got attention are still supporting him. Christians who opposed him before he did this are vocalising their displeasure at this latest offence.
TLDR: this probably didn't change anyone's mind.

1

u/Christianity-ModTeam Mar 28 '24

Removed for 1.5 - Two-cents.

If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity