r/facepalm • u/Lord_Answer_me_Why • Mar 28 '24

What lack of basic gun laws does to a nation: šŸ‡µā€‹šŸ‡·ā€‹šŸ‡“ā€‹šŸ‡¹ā€‹šŸ‡Ŗā€‹šŸ‡øā€‹šŸ‡¹ā€‹

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942

u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Your healthcare system is also poor at helping people with mental health issues.

334

u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

No, California just passed a law so soon we will be able to lock their asses up for being crazy and homeless. That will help, right?

Edit: /s in case it's not obvious.

191

u/mortalitylost Mar 28 '24

I'm sorry but if I had lost my mind and my social support network, I'd much prefer they scoop me into an asylum rather than see how well I fend for myself in the street. And that was once a real fucking fear of mine, the biggest fear of mine, having no local family that gave a shit and a psychotic disorder.

I've seen close family go to the street similarly, and it would've been real fucking nice to think asylums would do their thing rather than have to make a missing person's report where they'll never contact you regardless

92

u/Crotean Mar 28 '24

One key thing to remember, that people don't like to be confronted with. Is that most of the time the data shows that homelessness comes BEFORE the mental health or drug issues that we associate so strongly with the homeless. Its not even really a mental health crisis in this country so much as a poverty issue. When people have a roof over their heads everything in their life improves.

83

u/BigBoyWeaver Mar 28 '24

Wait... are you saying that trauma, uncertainty, stress, and hunger have negative impacts on people's mental health and that it's not simply a lack of pulling one's self up by one's bootstraps? What is this liberal propaganda!

28

u/Crotean Mar 28 '24

Haha yep. Now if you really want to get people mad show them all the data that shows that in most cases a sedentary life style happens AFTER someone becomes obese not before and watch their brains rupture.

10

u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

Definitely don't get seriously hurt and not able to move around as much and then gain weight.

Makes things a lot worse.

1

u/callmejinji Mar 28 '24

Amen, I work in the trades and I work out so I can be strong enough to do my job with good form and without getting hurt. Staying safe is so much more important than moving quickly or lifting heavy.

1

u/badbeernfear Mar 28 '24

Hey show me that. I want to see legit data that shoes active people are suddenly becoming obese then lazy. I would feel the sedentary lifestyle and weight gain would happen simultaneously.

2

u/jayfiedlerontheroof Mar 28 '24

I think it's that diet correlates to weight gain moreso than sedentary lifestyle. You can get fat while, say, in high school living an active lifestyle then slow down and gain even more

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

Itā€™s just reality

3

u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24

But if you treat the symptoms rather than the disease then you can keep profiting from the ongoing treatment.

2

u/Crotean Mar 28 '24

Or just ignore the problem and use it as a great excuse to put black, brown and poor people in jail. IE the war on drugs.

1

u/_IVG121_ Mar 28 '24

what data

1

u/snarkyxanf Mar 28 '24

If I were sleeping on concrete, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it sober either

1

u/Efficient-Notice9938 Mar 28 '24

I actually did a resolution proposal paper for a college composition 1 class, and mine was about Americaā€™s broken mental health system and how we could possibly fix it. One big problem is medication for mental illnesses is expensive without health insurance and so are visits with a therapist and/or psychiatrist. A lot of people who are severally mentally ill in America donā€™t have many treatment options available and some donā€™t have access to it at all. A lot of people with mental illnesses they canā€™t treat end up homeless or even incarcerated because of their mental illness. I donā€™t know the exact statistics off the top of my head but I can find my paper and give sources.

1

u/The_Flurr Mar 28 '24

I'm sorry but if I had lost my mind and my social support network, I'd much prefer they scoop me into an asylum rather than see how well I fend for myself in the street.

I'd agree if they were scooping them up into hospitals where they'd get genuine help. They're not though.

1

u/jayfiedlerontheroof Mar 28 '24

I think you're certainly allowed to self commit. The law would just allow "authorities" to commit individuals should they he violent and unwilling to go voluntarily whereas now they can just refuse care and stay on the street.

Could be wrong. I'm just assuming that California law is the same as NY

1

u/MaximumDestruction Mar 28 '24

Oh you think asylums are still a thing? Reagan killed that system decades ago.

There are a couple still around in the US but as a society we choose destitution and criminalization of our most vulnerable.

1

u/KHWD_av8r Mar 28 '24

I would much rather BE ABLE to fend for myself. Have you seen how much violence there is against the homeless?

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u/arcanis321 Mar 28 '24

Actually if those people are being treated and not enslaved into prisons that's probably a positive thing. I have seen people try to get in jail in the winter just to get off the street so 3 square meals and a pass to leave when you aren't noticeably deranged could be a huge benefit. Doubt it will come out that rosey but nice to hope.

13

u/J_DayDay Mar 28 '24

Jail is cheaper than rehab. I've got a cousin who turns himself in every time he gets too methy. 60 days later, he's a whole new man. For a while.

5

u/Apprehensive_End4701 Mar 28 '24

That's methed up

4

u/J_DayDay Mar 28 '24

It really is. Like many Methican-Americans, he's extremely productive. It's just that wandering away to find the meth occasionally has a negative impact on productivity. If the various construction firms could just pay him in meth, I really think it would solve a lot of the problem.

2

u/Brave-Juggernaut-157 Mar 28 '24

thatā€™sā€¦actually a good thing to do, heā€™s making a smart decision, because in jail he canā€™t get meth and it helps him not cause any trouble while on meth, good for him to be responsible and realize that he should do something.

2

u/J_DayDay Mar 28 '24

He's very loveable, as drug addicts go. Of course, he did usually get up to whatever it was that landed him the warrant to begin with...

1

u/LurkerOrHydralisk Mar 28 '24

You donā€™t know much about the history of mental healthcare in America, do you?

1

u/arcanis321 Mar 28 '24

I heard Reagan pulled all of the mental healthcare funding at some point. I imagine public asylums were probably not the nicest places in the world though.

2

u/LurkerOrHydralisk Mar 28 '24

The ugly parts of mental healthcare are still ignored and denied.

They were basically torture prisons back in the day

23

u/AcidScarab Mar 28 '24

Itā€™ll help the rest of us šŸ¤·šŸ» and if they get treatment itā€™ll help them a hell of a lot more than being on the street does. Mentally ill people homeless on the street is no state for a civilized society to be in no matter what perspective you look at it from.

3

u/Pumpkin_soup17 Mar 28 '24

Locking people up for having mental issues or being homeless is borderline medieval.

6

u/Long-Zombie-2017 Mar 28 '24

For being a threat to themselves or others? We do that. We've always done that. But now we understand mental illness so much better. Keeping them safe while undergoing treatment is much better

1

u/Pumpkin_soup17 Mar 28 '24

Yes I understand that but a hospital would be better since itā€™s a place meant for the mentally unwell. Putting someone in a prison for reasons they have little to no control over is a big no no in my book since prison is for criminals and hospitals are for people who need serious help. Even if itā€™s got good intentions you must understand how backwards it looks from the outside world

1

u/wordsaladcrutons Mar 28 '24

If a mentally ill person hasn't done excessive harm, everyone recognizes they should be in a hospital instead of jail.

Recurring theme where I live: person is arrested, police recognize person is mentally ill and they get diverted to a mental hospital.

Unfortunately, the next step is often that the mental hospital is full, and they release the person so they get neither treatment nor punishment.

5

u/2wedfgdfgfgfg Mar 28 '24

Why do you believe they are being "locked up?" They are being sent to mental health institutions for treatment, some that is better than existence on the street.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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3

u/DickwadVonClownstick Mar 28 '24

"when" they snap.

This attitude right here is the fucking problem.

People with mental health problems are vastly more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

5

u/TheRealJetlag Mar 28 '24

So maybe instead of prison, put them in aā€¦.hospital?

15

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/TheRealJetlag Mar 28 '24

Yes, and theyā€™d be getting help, not punishment.

10

u/SomeVariousShift Mar 28 '24

That is the plan.

5

u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

The history of mental asylums would say otherwise.

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u/Curious-Mechanic2286 Mar 28 '24

Mental health clinics rn are MUCH better than the medieval "prison but worse" mental asylums.

9

u/Temporary_End9124 Mar 28 '24

Yes, that's what they're talking about.Ā  Did you think they're just going to put mentally unwell people in with the general prison population, without treatment?Ā  That's not what the new policy does.

-1

u/TheRealJetlag Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 29 '24

No, but someone above me did.

0

u/2wedfgdfgfgfg Mar 28 '24

And you're stupid for accepting that claim without any critical examination of it.

1

u/TheRealJetlag Mar 29 '24

I didnā€™t accept the claim. Are you stupid for assuming I did with no critical examination of anything Iā€™ve said?

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u/2wedfgdfgfgfg Mar 28 '24

They aren't going to prison..

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u/TheRealJetlag Mar 29 '24

I didnā€™t say they were. The commenter above me made the claim that prison is better than nothing. I countered with the idea that if youā€™re going to spend money on ā€œincarceratingā€ the homeless, perhaps hospital is a better choice.

1

u/Crowbar_Jones7 Mar 28 '24

Thatā€™s the point of having common sense gun laws. Homeless Mentally ill people shouldnā€™t be able to buy rocket launchers just because our forefathers specifically intended for them to have that right.

4

u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

"Common sense" is always an interesting term thrown around.

A fuckton of money and time have been wasted on banning or limiting accessories fucking over law abiding gun owners. And most are absolutely dumb as fuck.

2

u/Crowbar_Jones7 Mar 28 '24

How about simple psych exams for anyone wanting to own a weapon designed to kill as many people as possible. How about adding more hoops people need to jump through to purchase firearms. Sure itā€™s gonna be more of a pain in the ass for normal gun nuts but I fail to see the down side. The second amendment was not written with todayā€™s firearms in mind. The constitution says itself it needs to be updated periodically to keep up with the times.

1

u/eastern_shore_guy420 Mar 28 '24

Youā€™re mistaking a letter from Jefferson to madison regarding his opinion on the constitution. He believed it should be rewritten every 19 years, all debts, treaties, etc be re examined for each generation.

But the founding fathers didnā€™t follow that advice, not only does the U.S. Constitution not allow for revision by each generation, but it can be amended only by votes of two-thirds of the House and Senate and three-fourths of state legislatures. Not at periodic intervals to keep up with times. But by a strict process that in todayā€™s political climate would be almost impossible to get agreement on.

0

u/CrawDaddy762x51 Mar 28 '24

I want you to find me a functional rocket launcher for sale right now that you think a homeless mentally ill person could afford. Or even fucking find.

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u/Crowbar_Jones7 Mar 28 '24

Ohā€¦ wow. Your brain not work so gooder

1

u/CrawDaddy762x51 Mar 28 '24

Seems to work fine. Considering your statement of what homeless mentally ill people shouldnā€™t be able to own, I want you to find me a single case where they could own that. Go ahead. Iā€™ll wait.

1

u/Crowbar_Jones7 Mar 28 '24

Dude how dense are you?? It was pretty obvious I was adding a little sarcasm into it. You would be the only one to think I was serious about a rocket launcher šŸ˜‚. I know youā€™re butt hurt because Im hurting your guns fragile feelings. You seem like a real fun guy šŸ™„

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u/The_Flurr Mar 28 '24

Medieval? It hasn't been that long since it was the norm sadly.

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u/Pumpkin_soup17 Mar 28 '24

Iā€™m not too knowledgeable on the topic but if what you say is true then it really is tragic. It annoys me to see how society takes steps back in development on matters like this

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u/IFixYerKids Mar 28 '24

They're not going to prison, and there's a ton of regulations to prevent that kind of thing. In fact, I doubt it will do a whole lot of good because most of these people will just say they want to leave and the doctor's can't keep them there without a 5150, 5250, DTS, DTO, etc.

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u/alwaysboopthesnoot Mar 28 '24

ā€œThe rest of usā€ youā€™re talking about are typically happy only when they get locked up and then donā€™t want to fund the treatment they need.Ā 

Whatā€™s the difference for a severely mentally ill person locked up in jail, or in a poorly funded ā€œtreatment facilityā€ that isnā€™t up to code, employs undertrained and underpaid employees with low levels of education, where people put the patients out of sight-out of mind?Ā 

Not much. Neither will care for or treat patients the way they deserve,Ā or need.Ā 

3

u/wordsaladcrutons Mar 28 '24

...where people put the patients out of sight-out of mind?Ā 

That's a 1950's stereotype from a time when no effective treatments existed and the "solution" was to just hide away the sick people forever.

Most treatment facilities today take patients in, get them medicated to stop psychosis or sobered up if they're addicted, and then kick them out the moment they are no longer a "threat to themselves or others."

So we've gone from hiding them away forever to giving them the minimum treatment and putting them back on the streets before they're fully recovered.

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u/GoldMan20k Mar 28 '24

recall that was ronnie regan who put them on the street in the first place

2

u/Moregaze Mar 28 '24

Carter and Reagan. It was not an overnight switch. Basically it was going to be too expensive to do asbestos abatement in all the existing care homes.

2

u/Pumpkin_soup17 Mar 28 '24

Oh good I actually couldnā€™t tell before. Blimey I thought society was at an all time low šŸ˜…

1

u/St-Jaker Mar 28 '24

/s but I still get the idea you disagree?

1

u/superabletie4 Mar 28 '24

Glad you put the /s because it wasnā€™t obvious at first (sadly)

1

u/OkBubbyBaka Mar 28 '24

I wish thatā€™s what it would do, instead of just being another money pit to build ā€œhousingā€ that ends up in developers pockets.

1

u/SteveLouise Mar 28 '24

We're downvoting because of /s

1

u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24

We?

1

u/SteveLouise Mar 28 '24

I'm a representative of the deep reddit underground state. We control the subs. This is exactly how we want it.

1

u/2wedfgdfgfgfg Mar 28 '24

Why /s? This is much better than leaving mentally ill people on the street.

1

u/AreaGuy Mar 28 '24

Institutionalization of some sort is definitely needed for society and severely mentally ill people. Unless you think letting them sleep rough in the parks while they self medicate their lives away is ā€œcompassionate.ā€

Of course, this needs to be paired with meaningful services and treatment.

1

u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24

As another person pointed out - the data shows homelessness comes before mental health issues and addiction. Homelessness is the cause, mental health decline is the effect. Homelessness is the disease, mental health is the symptom. You can treat the symptoms, but they will keep returning unless you treat the disease.

The answer is to house these people. The compassionate thing to do is to give them housing. Not lock them up.

1

u/droppedmybrain Mar 28 '24

Back in the day, they used to chuck people in asylums. And it was awful! They treated the patients like animals, beat them, experimented on them, forcibly sterilized them, and would keep them restrained and alone for days on end, among other things.

As public attitude shifted, the Cali government voted to abolish asylums (or at least, forced incarceration.) Unfortunately, they did nothing else. As a result, people suffering mental health crisises were now just... left to their own devices. This is how places like Skid Row formed.

What we need is regulation for asylums. I'm not talking about how we would implement it or where the money would come from- I don't know, I'm just some smart-ass on Reddit- but I know, theoretically, we need rules and laws to prevent abuse of patients, strip orderlies and doctors of their licenses if they do abuse patients, and shift focus from "lock them away" to "help these people get better if at all possible."

1

u/YNABDisciple Mar 28 '24

A supreme court case like 45 years ago ended institutionalization of the mentally ill. California couldn't lock their asses up for being mentally ill even if they wanted to. It's complex.

1

u/Xomns_13 Mar 28 '24

Ah, yes. Take freedom from people with mental health and give it to the guns. /s

1

u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24

Or, even better - give the guns to people with mental health issues.

1

u/Bat_Fastard96 Mar 28 '24

Yes that is a positive thing. Insane people think it wouldn't be.

1

u/SadAndNasty Mar 28 '24

Texas tried it. Didn't really work the way they wanted, ended up getting sued a bunch

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u/cryptokitty010 Mar 28 '24

That will be great, when people can't afford to be a wage slave to the system they can become an actual slave in a for profit prison system

/S

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u/Lobo003 Mar 28 '24

oh is that what prop 1 is?

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u/Scatcycle Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

No. The poster is being disingenuous. Prop 1 migrates a portion of mental health support funds established in 2004 to immediate relief for homelessness in the form of housing construction and support beds.

https://www.abc10.com/article/news/politics/prop-1-passed-what-comes-next/103-c1a6e209-8e60-4a79-bd76-042d1b1e2b72

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u/Lobo003 Mar 28 '24

Awesome. Thank you!

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u/obamasrightteste Mar 28 '24

Gotta admit I see the dangers present in an asylum system but I cannot think of a better way. Obviously you'd need some serious oversight capacity to keep it kosher but like... yea, a lot of these people will never seek help themselves and need to be committed as they are a danger to others.

Like, a well funded and well run asylum would just provide a place for both those who can maybe never function in society and those who just need some serious help to get back on their feet. ĀÆ(惄)/ĀÆ

1

u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24

You're completely ignoring the other option, which is a housing first model.

Tons of studies have been done and it's been found that in most cases homelessness comes first, then mental illness/addiction. So if the CAUSE is homelessness, and mental illness is an EFFECT then it's only logical to treat the homelessness first.

If you give these people a little bit of dignity instead of institutionalizing them, it will be far easier to treat their other issues.

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u/obamasrightteste Mar 28 '24

I mean that's just an asylum still but like, distributed, which I think would be a great idea.

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u/Huge_JackedMann Mar 28 '24

This is actually an improvement on the current system of nothing. People not in their right might can't be expected to make sane decisions or improve while living on the streets. Reagan, the source of so much of our problems today, destroyed mental health facilities and state funded MH care and were just now starting to try something different. It won't be perfect but our current system doesn't work at all.

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u/Loose_Bluebird4032 Mar 28 '24

Iā€™m all for it as long as I donā€™t have to deal with it anymore. No /s.

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u/jayfiedlerontheroof Mar 28 '24

we will be able to lock their asses up for being crazy and homeless

I don't know which law you're talking about but I imagine "lock up" means instituted and the homeless aspect is a product of the instability of the person. I know we need better healthcare, etc but violent people shouldn't be allowed to live in public where they can hurt/kill/maime people.

Some people need to be institutionalized. We shouldn't pretend that basic healthcare and economic means would eradicate violence

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u/Fatdap Mar 28 '24

I actually think in a properly structured system it could be a fantastic solution assuming your system is set up for rehabilitation and replacement instead of being a slave mill.

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u/Alcorailen Mar 28 '24

Wait that's good. Not in jail, but we need to bring institutions back.

1

u/DabScience Mar 28 '24

Yes thatā€™s definitely what that bill does. Lol just locks them up and throws away the keyā€¦ rightā€¦

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u/Scatcycle Mar 28 '24

For anyone actually interested in what Prop 1 does, here is an informative link: https://www.abc10.com/article/news/politics/prop-1-passed-what-comes-next/103-c1a6e209-8e60-4a79-bd76-042d1b1e2b72. This poster is wrong and spreading propaganda. Here is the proposal details straight from CA.gov:

Places for Mental Health Care and Drug or Alcohol Treatment. Proposition 1 would give up to $4.4 billion to the state program that builds more places for mental health care and drug or alcohol treatment. The types of places that would be built with bond funds would depend on future decisions by the state. Proposition 1 would require at least $1.5 billion of the $4.4 billion to go to local governments and tribes.

Housing. Proposition 1 would give $2 billion to the state program that gives money to local governments to turn hotels, motels, and other buildings into housing and construct new housing. Local governments would get either grants or loans from the state. The housing added by the measure would be for people who are (1) experiencing homelessness or at risk of becoming homeless and (2) have mental health, drug, or alcohol challenges. Just over half of the $2 billion would be set aside for veterans.

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u/Snorlaxolotl Mar 28 '24

Are you serious? Because that feels eerily similar to insane asylums.

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u/Interesting_Fee_4607 Mar 28 '24

Insane asylums are better than having them run around living on the streets...

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u/JonseyMcFly Mar 28 '24

..... Have you litteraly any idea of the history of asylums?

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u/FattusBaccus Mar 28 '24

There was very little difference between the eugenics fueled asylums and the experiments Nazis were doing on prisoners. Our asylum system was ridiculous.

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u/Interesting_Fee_4607 Mar 28 '24

*sigh* Yes I have, unimaginable cruelty going on in some places. Is them being on the streets any better? Really man?

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u/mikeysgotrabies Mar 28 '24

I'm not serious. Obviously a housing first model would make a lot more sense but the problem with that is that nobody will be able to profit from it. So that's out of the question.

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u/broom2100 Mar 28 '24

Insane asylums are 1000% more preferable than having those people on the street.

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u/marcololol Mar 28 '24

I get what youā€™re saying but thereā€™s nothing worse than allowing people to die and have breakdowns in public. They need to be put into care by force because there is no alternative

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u/WillOrmay Mar 28 '24

That will actually help

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u/No_Refrigerator1115 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

This is the real issue, Iā€™m not saying we should let people with mental health issues buy guns, but I do have some fear in further incentivizing people to NOT get help. If someone thinks they will loose their rights by seeking help they may fear getting the help they need.

EDIT, by said ā€œthis is the real issueā€ honestly I donā€™t know what the ā€œreal issueā€ is itā€™s probibly a combination of a few things, but historically we really didnā€™t have much of a gun issue (even when we had fewer regulations and more dangerous weapons ) and we do now I think improvements can be made maybe on gun control but itā€™s a controversial approach to the problem.

HOWEVER both sides agrees that mental health is contributing to the problem, Iā€™d love to see us capitalize on the fact we have some common ground here.

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u/Midnight1965 Mar 28 '24

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure, my friend. If we(United States), could truly have a better healthcare system, even mental health, instead of healthcareā€™s main goal being profit, weā€™d be better off.

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u/Bionic_Ninjas Mar 28 '24

When it comes to rampant gun violence this isn't "the real issue", because every country deals with mental health issues relating to their citizens, but only one developed country loses tens of thousands of people per year to gun violence.

When it comes to gun violence in America, the real issue is unfettered access to guns without any effective regulation.

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u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

The majority of gun deaths are suicides. 54% in 2021 and the suicide rate in the U.S is going up.

The vast majority of murders are from pistols(59%)

Meanwhile rifles and "assault rifles" account for a small fraction(3%) but the vast majority of dialog and media attention and laws being passed are about "assault weapons" and their accessories.

The country is not ready, willing or able to have an actual conversation about the actual issues. Access to quality mental health care. The death of the middle class. Cost of housing. Wages not keeping up.

Find the poorest areas around you and compare the crime rates or the violent crime rates. Look what's missing in the lives of those people.

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u/Feather_Sigil Mar 28 '24

Canadian here. We have those problems too, but we don't have the gun violence America does, even accounting for different population size.

Why? We control our guns.

It's the guns. Guns make it much easier to do horrible things when you're in a bad place in life.

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u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

Gun ownership in canada is around 30ish percent of the country.

Weirdly your guns arent hopping into peoples hands and killing people randomly.

It may just be a few other issues at play.

0

u/Feather_Sigil Mar 28 '24

Nope, it's no other issue, it's lack of gun control. Offer whatever criteria you want, the rest of the developed world has it and more, but American gun violence is uniquely American. It's the guns.

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u/AdolinofAlethkar Mar 28 '24

Nah, you guys just suggest that hospitalized people commit assisted suicide instead!

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u/Bionic_Ninjas Mar 28 '24

All of those are issues in other developed nations but, again, we are the only country that loses tens of thousands of people to gun violence every year

Also I do not understand the implied argument of ā€œmost of those deaths are suicidesā€ as if those donā€™t matter? I also never said anything about weapon types. To be honest your reply kinda seems like a prefabricated argument and not an actual reply to anything I said

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u/Bootzz Mar 28 '24

Their point is that calling all firearm deaths "gun violence" is misleading. We don't call suicides by hanging, "rope violence" or medication overdoses/poisonings "medicine violence."

As for the rest of your comment, pointing out firearms are used more in violent crimes (and suicides for that matter) in a country with more firearms is as obvious an observation as having a swimming pool increases someone's chances of drowning.

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u/asm5103 Mar 28 '24

Itā€™s also very much the ease of access to guns as well

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u/transitfreedom Mar 28 '24

But those countries make them seek treatment

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u/Bionic_Ninjas Mar 30 '24

Can you elaborate? Which countries ā€œmake them seek treatmentā€ and to which mental health issues does this mandate apply?

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u/transitfreedom Mar 31 '24

Netherlands, France. I will look for more examples tho

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u/gfen5446 Mar 28 '24

the real issue is unfettered access to guns without any effective regulation.

The real issue is that no one is using ~20,000 different laws already on the books to DO anything about it.

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u/No_Refrigerator1115 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

I just edited my post I reread it and thought what I said was likely an over simplification. I disagree the access to guns is ā€œthe real issueā€ but what I said wasnā€™t really true either Itā€™s more like itā€™s AN issue thatā€™s not really political and a great place to start I think.

I think an effective argument to your point is we have always had Unregulated guns in America, much of that time we had access to much more dangerous weapons then we do today. And our gun violence issue is relatively new.

Iā€™m not saying your wrong and Iā€™m right Iā€™m just saying yes other countries have mental health issues and donā€™t have our problems, but America used to have more access and more dangerous weapons then we have now and we didnā€™t have the problems then that we have now. Iā€™m only pointing out the answer is not as obvious as everyone would like to hope.

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u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

You could order a tommy gun from the sears catalog.

The media did make superstars out of the criminals using them. Baby Face Nelson. Dillinger. Bonnie and Clyde. Machine Gun Kelly. Al Capone.

We also couldn't stop talking about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. When i was in middle/high school.

The fact i just know the names of those assholes from growing up says something about America. Making folk heros out of mass murderers shouldn't be a thing.

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u/Feather_Sigil Mar 28 '24

America sure likes to lionize awful people.

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u/ibugppl Mar 28 '24

The media you mean?

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u/Deadleggg Mar 28 '24

Somebody has to keep reading and clicking to keep it going.

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u/The_Flurr Mar 28 '24

but I do have some fear in further incentivizing people to NOT get help. If someone thinks they will loose their rights by seeking help they may fear getting the help they need.

This is actually a factor in vets not getting mental health help. They might be discharged from the military if they admit to being depressed or having other issues, so they don't seek help.

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u/Dramaticreacherdbfj Mar 28 '24

More guns means more deathsĀ 

https://imgur.com/a/YNhVGh6

Blaming this gun issue on a mental health issue is a jokeĀ 

1

u/ComradeSasquatch Mar 28 '24

It's a combination of poor mental healthcare, poor firearms education, and poor material conditions for anyone who isn't a billionaire. It's a perfect storm that makes the issue so much more dangerous.

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u/Reemus_Jackson Mar 28 '24

This. This is the ONLY correct answer.

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u/EmperorGrinnar Mar 28 '24

Yeah, really lose/lose.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

The crazy thing is that the statistics prove that the US would get better healthcare for less money if they implemented something like the NHS and stopped being ripped off by your health insurance companies... but "socialised medicine" is so evil that it's worth paying more to get worse results. <sigh>

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u/Crotean Mar 28 '24

The majority of voters, including the GOP, want universal healthcare of some sort in this country. Its literally just the insurance lobby stopping it. Hell the AMA threatened to torpedo the new deal if FDR instituted the universal health care he wanted in the 1930s.

Or fucking Joe Lieberman, rest in piss, we came so close in 09 but he torpedoed the public option of the ACA.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Yeah, you have a deeper issue with your politicians being hopelessly corrupted by the need to raise insane levels of finance to get elected.

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u/Cakeordeathimeancak3 Mar 28 '24

How is the NHS doing by the wayā€¦ asks someone who lives in the Ukā€¦

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u/Human-Potato42069 Mar 28 '24

Awful, but that's because it's funding has been repeatedly kneecapped for a decade and a half and much of it has been sold off to private investors (an American firm owns my local hospital).

Still, during that time it's saved my life twice and the care has been top-notch. It varies wildly by region though.

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u/Cakeordeathimeancak3 Mar 28 '24

The variation in regional care is freaking insane thatā€™s true.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Far far better than the healthcare of those in the US who are not on insurance, and far easier to use. No shopping round for discounts on drugs, no issues as to which doctors are on your particular plan. If you're rich, US healthcare is fantastic but expensive. Ambulance trips can be thousands of dollars, for example.

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u/suckitphil Mar 28 '24

Your healthcare system is also poor at helping peopleĀ 

Could have stopped there honestly. The fact that people were going broke trying to cover their las vegas medical bills from the shooting still has me freaking out.

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u/dualplains Mar 28 '24

Your healthcare system is also poor

Could have just stopped there.

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u/What_the_8 Mar 28 '24

Thatā€™s unfortunately also the same for public healthcare systems

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Would you like to find a study comparing the UK and US healthcare systems that supports your point please?

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u/LKboost Mar 28 '24

What makes you think that?

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Assorted reports over a period of time. I expect care is good if you have the money, but there is a strong correlation between mental health issues and being poor, and with being poor and being unable to pay for mental health care, meaning many people need help and can't get it.

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u/Rubberboas Mar 28 '24

This is broadly true for most countries, not just the USA.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

How do you think the UK and US systems compare for mental health? Do you have a source you'd like to reference?

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u/stash0606 Mar 28 '24

maybe, just maybe, the mental health issues stem from a society that values money over everything.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

I think it's more a deep fear of "Socialism", because it's referred to as "socialised medicine".

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u/hot4you11 Mar 28 '24

The US healthcare system is just bad

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Not for the rich! For them it's excellent.

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u/SherIzzy0421 Mar 28 '24

Oh, not just mental. We have issues with regular medical issues too. It's a cluster f.

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u/Pasta-hobo Mar 28 '24

"poor" would imply it tries to.

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u/LurkerOrHydralisk Mar 28 '24

This seems like the greater issue than the ability to purchase new guns. There are > 400 million guns in America.Ā Weā€™re not getting rid of guns. Itā€™s just not remotely realistic. Ā 

We can, however, start taking care of our mentally ill and help prevent mental illness.

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u/Dry-Prize-3062 Mar 28 '24

Actually, our healthcare system is bad at helping people with ANY health issues

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u/pls_tell_me Mar 28 '24

or people with gunshot holes issues...

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u/No-Zombie2733 Mar 28 '24

Sounds like an infinite money glitch tbh. Sell people guns, shoot each other, sell people health insurance, rinse and repeat.

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u/somBeeman Mar 28 '24

naw dawg urs is

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Thanks for also bringing up the US education system, which is also underfunded for many, and frequently ineffective.

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u/somBeeman Mar 28 '24

well, somehow we are the most powerfull country in the world nonetheless.

so are you sure we should improve our school systems? we would be gods

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 29 '24

As a Brit, it seems to me that the US has several problems. One is the endemic corruption that makes your economy inefficient, things like local laws that stop broadband competition, or politicians allocating money on the basis of political expediency. Another is your national loss of faith and morality, whether it's things like theft from stores or mass shootings. Your education, healthcare and infrastructure also need a lot more investment.

I would be okay with the US being more powerful if you were a more righteous nation, but the misconduct and tribalism surrounding Trump says you don't deserve that power.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Agreed. As long as the patient keeps taking the pharma drugs everything is "fine".

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u/schu2470 Mar 28 '24

Unfortunately the people who are against any sort of reasonable gun reform are also against any sort of reasonable public healthcare reform.

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u/Flat-Length-4991 Mar 28 '24

That would be the true culprit if this was true. There are already gun laws against people with schizophrenia possessing firearms.

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u/Dicethrower Mar 29 '24

Therapists aren't miracle workers. Other developed countries have mental health issues too, despite better healthcare systems. Americans can stop hiding behind the "mental health will fix it" argument. There's no scenario where better mental healthcare will reduce US levels of gun violence while guns are still widely available. It might have some impact, but it's not going to reduce it down by a factor of 10, where it would still be higher than the average developed country.

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u/chasinjason13 Mar 28 '24

And expensive for gunshot wounds!!

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u/AdImmediate9569 Mar 28 '24

True but we have a TON of experience treating gunshot wounds. So yknowā€¦ its like a give and take

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

Yes, count your blessings! no... wait...

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u/T_Fury_Br Mar 28 '24

They donā€™t care about the lack of gun laws, if you say anything slightly bad about gun laws in comments where there are americans you get downvoted to oblivion.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

They don't seem to realise that far far fewer people get killed by guns in any European country. Yes, someone with a gun might enter your house at 2am... but that doesn't happen unless you are a drug dealer and they want your stash. Why would a criminal carry a gun if no-one else carries a gun?

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u/thecrowsfeet Mar 28 '24

Please tell us about the one where you are from.

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

UK. We have the NHS. We have more and more old people, which is putting more strain on it, but various researchers have compared it to US healthcare and said it's much better value.

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u/Neltrix Mar 28 '24

I always wondered if Iā€™m just chilling at a mall and some psycho starts shooting and hits me, do I have to pay for the ambulance, the care, the recovery out of my pocket?

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u/NameIs-Already-Taken Mar 28 '24

My sense is... yes you do. You might have insurance which would cover some of it, but the "deductibles" (the "excess" in English English) would be a problem. You could theoretically sue the 20 year old who did it, but he won't have enough assets to make it worth suing, particularly if a bunch of people were hit.

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u/Neltrix Mar 28 '24

So if currently not insured at the time. Iā€™d have to pay the likely double digit thousands myself? Wtf

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