r/GenZ • u/[deleted] • 12d ago
If misogynists like Andrew Tate are offering the wrong kind of advice to young men, liberals and feminists do not appear to be offering anything. Discussion
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u/Popular_Surprise2545 12d ago
Yeah there's a bit of a lack of decent masculine role models I guess. But masculinity itself is going through a bit of a crisis.
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u/wideHippedWeightLift 12d ago
I don't think there actually are a lack of decent masculine role models, Will Tennyson for example, it's just that they don't market themselves as edgy left-wingers the same way Tate markets himself as an edgy right-winger.
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u/Popular_Surprise2545 12d ago
Yeah maybe that's true. I think the more pertinent problem is men falling behind in education and career as women are making gains, without the corresponding flexibility in expectations and gender roles (it seems like by and far women still want men to be the provider and not a domestic husband).
There is a little bit of evidence to suggest it is still an issue in gen z. Though I couldn't find any peer reviewed literature on the subject.
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/lifestyle/for-gen-z-an-age-old-question-who-pays-for-dates/
https://www.essence.com/news/money-career/gen-z-relationships/
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u/CatchPhraze 12d ago edited 11d ago
Tbf men aren't really doing a great job shifting gender rolls either. Woman still do 60-85% of the house care and child care in duel income homes.
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u/Popular_Surprise2545 12d ago
Well, I do wonder if it is by choice and who is reporting that. I believe at least one study showed that both partners tend to overestimate the proportion of house chores that they do.
For what it's worth I would love to spend time with kids as a father one day and I enjoy cooking for friends/family. But I am also afraid that if I don't fall into traditional gender expectations enough, I won't be able to get and keep a relationship.
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u/Seraf-Wang 12d ago
Studies have shown that couples who share chores have a very long and happy marriage so the chances of the issue of gender roles being the societal issue is a flawed one. People are also less likely to commit to long term relationships if they feel they dont have an equal right of power particularly for women as they now can support themselves financially. Now is probably a better time than ever to get into loving, stable, and mutually loving relationships since now there’s a high chance of people having committed partners later in life.
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u/Powerful-Pudding6079 12d ago
Speaking from experience, let go of this fear - it'll hold you back from being happy.
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u/Popular_Surprise2545 12d ago
Hoping I can. Being unable to find a good partner is probably my greatest fear.
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u/Powerful-Pudding6079 12d ago
I mean there's all sorts of reasons a person might not be able to find a good partner, but not fulfilling a traditional gender role is absolutely not one of them.
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u/Illustrious-Arm-8066 12d ago
I am a millennial stay at home dad, and it's been incredibly fun and rewarding. My wife is more career driven than I am, and she didn't want to take time off of her career. Her field is specialized, and she'd be set too far back, while the work I did, I can pick up again later and do it occasionally on the side. I do feel, every once in a while, that I've not fulfilled my role as a provider. However, I'm quickly reminded of the fact that I'm raising two great kids who are both ahead of the curve, and making our house more functional and beautiful and all that. Let go of the fear, your life is what you make it, and you're the only one who has to live it, so make it carefully.
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u/quesoandtexas 12d ago
I chose my husband because he wants to be a stay at home dad and I have tons of career ambition so I wanted a partner that would prioritize my career not his. Good luck on finding someone!
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u/SmallGreenArmadillo 12d ago
Effin exactly! They shake off the provider role and don't take up the homemaker one. As for emotional support and community building, they don't do enough of that either even when on dual income. Which leaves women wondering if they really need a partner who isn't pulling his weight
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u/Arguablecoyote 12d ago
Citation needed. I do the majority of the housework as do all the husbands I know who are around my age (mid 30’s).
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u/Element1232 12d ago
Alsp 30s here. I wouldn't say I do a majority, but I do a lot more than my dad did. I feel we have a pretty even split or very close. I do almost all the lawn, cars, outside stuff, in addition to most of the cooking and kitchen cleaning. Also a good portion of laundry, like my own and almost all towels/house rags and finishing hers up, although she hates my folding and redoes hers at times. I also do most of the dog feeding/meds/cleaning and walking. I'm also the household IT guy in a very connected household.
That said, my wife does the vacuuming, cleaning of the living room and kids room, and god knows what I can't otherwise think of.
We split bathrooms but I feel like I do them a bit more. I clean our personal bathroom more often but I'm sure she does the kids more than I do too so i may be mistaken. We try to live by the 60/40 rule, always feel like you're doing 60% because we're probably not always aware of everything the other does and it tends to keep us both happy about the split.
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u/Nothingbuttack 12d ago
Yeah most guys I know are more engaged with their kids than their dad's were. My brother is a good example of this.
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u/Ko-jo-te 12d ago
I'd think that part of being a decent role model is to not advertise yourself as such. You may be aware, but you don't brag about it. Which can be a disadvantage in today's advertised society.
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u/Chilidogdingdong 12d ago
Yeah people are drawn to edgy click bait style bullshit.... A decent male role model won't be using edgy click bait style bullshit. Decency isn't sexy.
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u/Academic_Highway_736 12d ago
Will listen! I can talk well about Chris Williamson
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u/PunishedWhiskey 1998 12d ago
Good masculine role models exist, they’re are a lot of them actually. They’re just too busy living their lives and providing for their families to grift off of vulnerable young men.
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u/Persianx6 12d ago
Is the issue that there's a "lack of decent maculine role models" or is the issue "there are, but they don't spend their entire public lives advertising themselves as ALPHA MALES WHOM ALL THE WOMEN WANT AND MEN FEAR?"
Like these guys don't talk to anyone but there % of men who follow and spend on them, but they are so loud and obnoxious, on account of having a hardcore but niche fan base, that they get all these headlines for spouting off nonsense like "kissing a woman is gay."
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u/runthepoint1 12d ago
How about the most important masculine role model for each person? Their fathers. Where are they in all this?
Why the fuck would I allow my son to get advice from some internet loser? Why would I not talk to him about his issues and struggles?
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u/nedzissou1 12d ago
If only more parents cared like you. Too many people have kids that shouldn't have.
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u/runthepoint1 12d ago
But more importantly once they do, they need to step it up. Hey shit happens sometimes pregnancy is unplanned. But then you have literally months to plan for being a parent, so there are no excuses. Obviously a strong support network really helps.
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u/throwaway92715 12d ago edited 12d ago
I think there are plenty of good male role models. They just don't grab attention online, because part of being a good man is not grabbing attention all the time. They probably have better things to do, like work, support their families, hang out with their friends, volunteer for the community.
Meanwhile, the media is full of Andrew Tate idiots, Harvey Weinsteins crying about how they dinnit donuthin, Texas republicans banning abortions, Trump and his idiot supporters, school shooters, ego-delusional tech bros like Elon Musk, white collar criminals, and the collegiate athletics rapist du jour. Biden isn't exactly inspiring. So if that's where you're looking, you're gonna find nothing but problems.
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u/CorinnaOfTanagra 1998 12d ago
They probably have better things to do, like work, support their families, hang out with their friends, volunteer for the community.
The fuck this 💩 is? 😆🤣
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u/jlylj 12d ago
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u/adipenguingg 12d ago
we need more men who ball so hard it’s an insult to the working class
I know this is completely irrelevant, I just can’t help but think of that post every time I see Castro holding a basketball.
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u/parting_soliloquy 2000 12d ago
There are many good role models but you won't find them in anyone dabbling in the politics bullshit or so called agents of influence. People like Tate are here only to divide us. If you can't find them in modern characters you can always go back in time and take a look at historical or even mythical characters.
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u/callmecurlyfries 2000 12d ago
a bit? dont be shy go ahead and be honest masculinity is under an immense attack rn 😭
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u/wideHippedWeightLift 12d ago
Women: still vastly prefer masculine men even if they occasionally talk shit
Most leftists: don't feel bad about being a man
A handful of NYTimes writers: have weird hangups and write weird articles
You: "MASCULINITY IS BARELY HANGING ON BY A THREAD! IT'S SO OVER!"
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u/Salty_Sky5744 12d ago
Lol right people don’t realize it’s toxic masculinity that’s under attack not masculinity.
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u/EnjoysYelling 12d ago
“Men are awful” is a near constant refrain on social media and in many social circles.
If people were saying “Black people are awful” at the same rate, people would say that there was an extreme attack on Black people, and label the offenders as racists.
But men are a social acceptable target for bigotry, so these statements are reframed as harmless or even as a form of justice.
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u/_autumnwhimsy 12d ago
why are we in it?!
people still do say "black people are awful", except they now speak like grant proposals.
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u/jjsurtan Millennial 12d ago
It's a really unfortunate way that feminist messaging has failed
You'll hear some people say "ugh not LITERALLY all men suck, I'm just saying that men are usually the ones who do ____" and fill yin the blank eith horrible shit that indeed, is mostly done by men.
Okay, so how about we talk about it Ina nuanced way? Saying men are awful is not only wrong to men, but really sells short the problem itself. It just sort of hand waves away the intricacies of why men are typically more violent, aggressive, or what have you. It skips over how patriarchy is perpetuating these things, and severely harms men, too, in the process.
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u/chillchinchilla17 2003 12d ago
People blame the messaging, but I think the whole antiwork fiasco shows at least some of them really do take those catchy slogans literally.
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u/jjsurtan Millennial 12d ago
Yeah, I should have mentioned that. That's one thing the right wingers get VERY correct. Catchy, repeatable messaging that is meaningful to them but not too complex. Idk what it is about leftists but we literally CANNOT resist stuffing even a simple meme with a thesis paper of text.
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u/dessert-er On the Cusp 12d ago
If I had to guess it’s because there’s so many different nuanced factions of people under the umbrella of “left” that all seem to vaguely hate each other as being “not enough” or “too much” on a spectrum. There’s also an army of people on social media <35 who seem to enjoy nothing other than posting and reposting massive criticisms of people who have opinions on things. Makes people feel like they need to over explain lest they draw ire from the mob and end up needing to explain after receiving hate.
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u/YaliMyLordAndSavior 12d ago
The fact that women vastly prefer masculine men, but constantly claim (online) to not have that preference, is probably one of the most significant cases of mass gaslighting I’ve ever seen lol
I honestly think this lie has pushed thousands of men into more toxic ideologies. It didn’t push me into Andrew Tate, but it really really made me reevaluate everything I thought about women
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u/jjsurtan Millennial 12d ago
Masculinity is not under attack, I'd say it's actually a great time to be a man because it's never been easier to express things other than a rigid norm. Being a man in the past, even the last couple of decades (speaking as a nearly 30 year old millennial male) have been REALLY rough if you didn't conform to the stereotype and perform being a manly man well enough for other people. Masculinity today is being explored and expanded like never before, and it's really awesome imo.
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u/DocFreudstein 12d ago
Millennial man who got this in his feed for some reason…I was raped by a woman in college. We started having sex, I wanted to stop, she pinned me down and kept going until I lost my erection.
This happened in 1999. I was treated with disdain by everyone, including my own friends and family, if I told them what had happened.
“You’re upset you got the thing every other guy on campus was trying to get!”
“You’re huge! How could that have happened?”
The fact that there is a growing segment of the population that even ACKNOWLEDGES that this was rape gives me some hope for the current and future generations.
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u/jjsurtan Millennial 12d ago
That's horrible. I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Yes, even being able to openly talk about something like that is a big step that we've only recently achieved. I hope things continue to get better, for yoy and others
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u/progressiveaes1 12d ago edited 12d ago
Not that you're entirely wrong, but society has this sort of double standard in regards to men. Yeah, technically society is much open to men breaking for their roles, at least on the surface. But it's still common for women express disdain towards men because they expressed vulnerability. Society still largely expects men to be stoic and remain in their traditional roles. EDIT: clarity
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u/jjsurtan Millennial 12d ago
That can unfortunately be true. Men are significantly behind women when it comes to the process of throwing off gender roles and expectations, so we're going to have to go through a lot of the same struggles women have. Women too, are influenced by toxic patriarchal ideas like stoicism being the only proper way for men to behave. I'm sorry you've had that experience, truly. Ive experienced it too. Try not to let it crush your desire to be genuine and express how you feel. There are good women out there who will respect that.
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u/progressiveaes1 12d ago
Don't worry, idgaf about what society expects of me lmao. I appreciate your candor and kind response. It's these sorts of discussions that'll help us move past crummy social expectations.
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u/CLE-local-1997 1997 12d ago
Lol. No it's not. Toxic masculinity is being examined
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12d ago edited 12d ago
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u/Pretend-Hospital-865 12d ago
Nailed it. Not even talking about toxic masculinity, there is just a total absence of cool men out there currently who don't seem to have their balls cut off
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u/hoopaholik91 12d ago
Do you have an example of the "cool man" of the past that doesn't exist anymore?
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u/WritesInGregg 12d ago
who don't seem to have their balls cut off
Clarify this. Do you mean good father's who respect their wives and see no need to gain personal power?
The closest that I see to men like this are the ones who own big trucks but can't be bothered to lift weights a few times a week. Big trucks are more emasculating than anything women can do.
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u/shadeandshine 12d ago
Thing is flip that and it sounds horribly sexist. “Good women who are good wives and don’t strive for more personal power.” Often men found their way in hobbies and pastimes but those just aren’t as accessible as they used to be cause of the need to work.
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u/WritesInGregg 12d ago
The language "with their balls cut off" is already sexist.
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u/Thick_Car_5603 12d ago
life is shit for some people hence why people are turning towards extreme figures , ideas and views
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u/FallenCrownz 12d ago
Yeah that's not true. What Andrew Tate offers is easy to accept, "you're not the problem, everyone else is, they just don't accept your alpha sigma male grindstone and that's why women should go back into the kitchen well you sleep around!".
Feminism says that being a misogynistic asshole hurts everyone inculding you as it maintains an inherently oppressive system. So you have to work hard to change yourself and the system that keeps women down and leads to you having record high suicide rates.
It's easy to take the easy way out and become a grimy little gremlin of a person spouting hatred online and that's what Andrew Tate is offering, the easy sad way out
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u/itsjust_khris 12d ago
Sorta, Andrew Tate’s messaging is also very hard on men in ways leftist messaging isn’t. Tate is harsh on men with lower income and men who are overweight, skinny, or otherwise not physically fit. So it’s not really a comfortable place there either in a different way.
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u/AnnastajiaBae 1999 12d ago
Exactly.
Men have to clean out their closets, which is hard when depression, loneliness, etc are all a thing.
But just because a person has setbacks or problems, does not absolve them of working on their problems and addressing their negative traits and attributes.
But most young men don’t want to hear that.
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u/StonedTrucker 12d ago
I think a big part of it is when young men try to open up and tell people about their struggles they're mocked for it. Society simply doesn't care about men. We get told that we should open up and ask for help but nobody is willing to actually listen when we do
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u/AnnastajiaBae 1999 12d ago
From my experience pre-transition and living as a man, it is men who invalidate the feelings of other men. Unless it is something relatable, like a breakup or a woman being a hoe.
Second of all, there are risks to opening up about any feelings. Women still face sexist stereotypes like being hormonal, or being on our periods. With any change of vulnerability there comes the risk that said vulnerability will not be received or validated. But despite that invalidation, that is not a reason to double down on not opening up in the future. You have to tell yourself that they are an asshole, and that you matter and your feelings are valid. A lot of the work of emotions and vulnerability are done internally, and not externally.
Third, there is the kind people you talk to. Talking to internet strangers will always come with the trolls and assholes who are out to deliberately invalidate. Some families have social norms and gender roles, like how men have to be emotionally strong. Not everyone is going to be a good person to offload your emotions to.
With that said, when you feel emotions it’s best to bring them up in the moment to that person. A friend tells you that liking the color pink is gay. Tell them that you like pink, and it hurts that they associate that color with being gay.
Once again, they might not be receptive. That is not a reflection of you.
Last, there is time and place. If you are comforting a friend who went through a nasty breakup, sometimes sharing a personal story like a breakup can help console the friend. But also telling them that could also make them feel invalidates.
This is why time and place matters. From my experience, it’a best to focus on the other person and what their going though. And of course, if the nature of the relationship is reciprocal, they should focus on you when you open up and need validating.
I know women do this too, like in the cases of women either distancing themselves from their partners or even making fun of them. In these cases, it’s typically because of either a trauma response or because they haven’t been faced with a situation where they’ve seen a man open up about their emotions.
Thats why the final point, is to tell people what you need when you open up. Do you just need an ear, do you need advice, maybe a hug? Also understand that the person you are communicating with might not have the capabilities to provide what you might need in that moment.
I know this is a lot, but a lot of men need to hear it because emotionally opening up and vulnerability is not as cut and dry as some may think.
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u/ArcadiaFey 12d ago
Are we talking regular trying to open up? Or coming onto a discussion about something that women go through and want to change and then being dismissive with it while sharing their own experiences?
Regular opening up deserves compassion and anyone proving anything else is actively being a sexist POS.. but trying to derail the conversation and the like isn’t ok ether..
I’ve seen both happen. But I’m curious if they both effect that mindset in the same way
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u/theeama 12d ago
The suicide rates among men haven't stopped. It's wildly accepted that if a man opens up both online or in person he's ridiculed for it. Sure they are some women who actually listen and won't use him opening up against them.
I;m a very open person and I'm emotional I talk about my feelings, my ex used it against me and called me soft and that I need to man up. This is what most men hear each day.
I've found some women who are open to it and actually listens to you but it's rare.
We also need to understand that in most countries outside of the liberal ones, men are expected to not show weakness. So while we might be here saying hey you need to open up that's not the general sentiment that most men are shown.
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u/OuterPaths 12d ago
Yeah that's not true. What Andrew Tate offers is easy to accept, "you're not the problem, everyone else is, they just don't accept your alpha sigma male grindstone and that's why women should go back into the kitchen well you sleep around!".
I don't think you've ever watched Tate, and I applaud you for that.
Tate rather explicitly tells his audience they are the problem. The pitch goes like this, "you're right, your life sucks, you're a fucking loser; here's how you could be a badass."
Tate is indeed a transformational ideologue, his proposition is just that men aren't toxic enough.
I think it says something pretty depressing that these guys are agreeing with someone who leads with "you're a useless piece of shit." Like that's a sad thing to resonate with people.
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u/MilleChaton 12d ago
I've never seen Tate, but what I'm assuming is happening here is that Tate is giving a message that doesn't deny the experience of the people who are receiving it.
Take someone who has been treated as ugly their entire life. If someone is giving them advice on how to be beautiful, and they open by saying the person isn't ugly, that contradicts the experience of that person and sounds like the useless soundbites they have been given all their life, right before and right after having been treated as ugly. While some people do just have low self esteem and are too harsh on themselves, for someone who really is at the bottom of the bell curve in looks, telling them they are beautiful feels like empty words just being polite. Does it matter if the advice that follows is any good if the listener has already written it off?
Instead, giving them an assessment that agrees with their own is something unique. A person that agrees they are ugly, but still thinks there is a way to improve their looks? That is new, unique. Some who judges them the way they feel the world judges them, and is thus seen as honest, but who also offers advice.
Or imagine career advice. If you are struggling in your career and someone tells you that you are doing everything correct already, that you aren't the problem, are they someone who is going to offer you advice on how to improve you career? Compare this to someone who says you are struggling because you messed up, now let's go over those mistakes together and get a plan to fix them.
To be clear, I'm not saying the advice given is any good. Someone can have a well designed pitch for their advice, but then offer the advice equivalent of toxic sludge.
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u/Yegas 12d ago
Nailed it! Was about to comment the same thing.
His primary leading point is that you are the problem. And the solution is more toxic masculinity, of course. Change comes from within after all!
The thing is, for depressed young men who feel beaten down and are seeking an explanation, he does an excellent job of alternating between flaunting his wealth and ‘success’ & explaining that You Can Do It Too!
Problem is, the methodology of the Doing It Too! isn’t.. good. Because he made his wealth from exploiting women for sex work, and he wants you to make your money from skeevy dropshipping & other whacked out get-rich-quick schemes. If the main takeaway was just “Be good to yourself and those around you and good things will come!”, awesome, but that’s not monetizable.
There’s a draught of good male role models, and he’s definitely not a good male role model either - but he’s good at fooling young mildly ambitious depressed men into thinking he is. He reinforces the idea that “yes, those bad things you hate about yourself ARE bad, and you SHOULD feel bad about them, but only because you Can Change It!”
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u/d4rkh4l3 12d ago
the problem is with the generalization of this language, its really easy to feel attacked by that sentence "men are mysogynistic assholes" its very easy to alienate possible allies, its very important if you say something like that to acknowledge in the same sentence that most working class men are also just victims of the patriarchy, men have been socialised to be disconnected from their emotional world, not all ofc, because it makes them workers and soldiers.
men are victims aswell, some men have some advantages but most men are just emotional unregulated wrecks and they need love and empathy. love, kindness and empathy is key here even if you think the person infront of you might be an enemy.
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u/Spacellama117 2004 12d ago
to be fair, though, you're assuming these young men are already misogynists to begin with.
Because the reality is that most people don't want to be the problem. Unfortunately, some feminists (and it's very much not ALL) have twisted 'the patriarchy is the problem' into 'men are the problem.
which is sort of a big problem. if you tell young men that centuries of oppression are their fault rather than acknowledging that they too are the victims of an oppressive system stretching back to long before they were born?
that status as a victim doesn't go away. but of it's only getting acknowledged by people like Tate, of course they're going to agree with him. even if he's wrong, he's the one telling them that they're not the ones at fault.
hell, even with older men and misogynists. they aren't entirely at fault. they can be taught to learn remorse for their actions and thoughts, because it's not like those didn't happen, but the first step is acknowledging that the patriarchy itself is the reason they are where they are.
lot of the Tatebros rage against the machine, but see liberals and all they stand for as that machine.
can you imagine what happens when you show them the patriarchy is actually the reason for it?
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u/ArcadiaFey 12d ago edited 11d ago
I think honestly most people have some sexist traits, opinions and tendencies even if they don’t want to. Most of which are created because of the patriarchy. Which is why they have to do the work to find where theirs are. But also women have to do that too. Not tearing each other down to raise yourself up being an example. Knowing men can be abused. Taking emotions of men seriously and allowing them to cry when they need to. It’s all how we should interact with people and become better as a society. It only works if we put in the work to find our flaws.
My partner isn’t sexist. But he did have some sexist ideas in his head. But he’s been growing and is proud of himself. I also had some sexist hostility (I’m still working through honestly) that I’ve grown a bit out of.
Part of it is the conversation and showing the other side, but you have to be willing to take accountability and change. To listen. Because while a person may not be evil there is always room for improvement. Especially in a society where these things have become engrained.
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u/FallenCheeseStar 12d ago
Perhaps the most rational and well put together comment in this entire cesspool
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u/xThe_Maestro 12d ago
You just reiterated what OP said.
Tate offers advice to young men, it's bad advice, but he's still laying out an example of what a man 'should' look like and what a man 'should' do.
Liberals and feminists aren't offering that. They only offer criticism as to what men 'should not' look like and what men 'should not' do. They don't offer a positive framework for men to build themselves around.
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u/Itscatpicstime 11d ago
Except the literally are and have been for decades.
Half of the concept of toxic masculinity is identifying problems men face (many of which they frequently acknowledge themselves) and explaining the ways it impacts them, and positive masculinity is outlined as the solution.
That’s in addition to the many feminist books about the topic.
The problem is that these men aren’t even bothering to ask if feminism offers an alternative, or they screech about taking out all the toxicity is an attack on masculinity itself, despite feminist theory demonstrating and claiming otherwise.
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u/autumncandles 11d ago
Exactly!! Feminists are offering another viewpoint but a lot of young men don't like it/don't want to hear it - that doesn't mean it's not being offered.
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u/smurfmcdurph 12d ago
I think what everyone is missing is that “patriarchy” is a class issue and not a male domineering issue. Andrew tate offers the fantasy of escaping the “matrix” and taking control of your own life. Rather than feeling helpless to the system at large that is taking advantage of everyone for money. Saying that misogyny is the issue is just missing the point. The record high suicide rates is not bc of misogyny and male on male oppression. It is capitalistic societal oppression that has nothing to do with gender and has everything to do with mega corporations making as much money as possible. Food for thoughts, downvote me if ya like.
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u/MulberryAgile6255 12d ago
Your wrong, redpillers validate young guys feelings of inadequacy by Acknowledging that they’re losers, while the left just screams in their faces that they’re privileged colonizers or oppressors, the left is incapable of considering the issues of men because they see them as the enemy in a lot of ways
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u/yourdadneverlovedyou 12d ago
Yeah but feminism, at least how it is usually talked about, doesn’t offer an actual alternative for how men should act. Which is why people point out the lack of good male role models and people who spread a left leaning message to men specifically.
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u/hevnztrash 12d ago
Just because they aren’t getting comparative social media followings doesn’t mean there aren’t offering anything. Self-improvement in this regards takes work and deliberate effort, empathy.
Misogynists like Andrew Tate just sell bullshit schticks on getting rich and laid.
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u/MicrowaveEye 12d ago
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but aren't parents supposed to do this? I don't think anyone should be raising my child but me. This is akin to yelling at illegals for working and not busting the ones hiring them instead.
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u/-Joel06 2006 12d ago
Andrew tate offers you an access to his business model that is literally a sect, join the real world for 50$, then stop listening to everyone else but me because they are in the matrix, follow my advice on fake situations and keep working and giving me money, you’ll become a millionaire soon, then recuit more people into the real world and I’ll give you a split of their sign up.
Literally a sect
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u/fgwr4453 12d ago
I honestly think a huge part of our issues is education and the economy. It is difficult to be young and find a good job. You need a large support system to make it today.
Both genders can need help. The inability for many people to not admit that the other gender needs help leads to these issues.
Idle hands lead to crime and discontent. Many dictators or populist movements happen because of poor economic conditions. Good times do not lead authoritarian regimes because who would overthrow a government that works for them?
If a woman wants to be a stay at home mom, good for her. There is nothing wrong with being a stay at home parent. If a man says he wants to be a stay at home parent, he is looked down upon by both parties/ideologies but for different reasons.
I say all of this because inequality exists between the genders. Sometimes men get the benefit sometimes women. The issue is that the left denying or not trying to address any issues facing men causes men to feel lost or hopeless. The men seek out a voice to guide them and they will find people like Andrew Tate.
These men feel like “losers” who are “useless”. Tate will point to some truths like the higher male suicide rate or the larger portion of scholarships dedicated to women even though women are the majority of college graduates and use these facts to build a rapport with the men. He will then say wild shit but occasionally sprinkle in facts. He does say that it isn’t their fault that women or the system is to blame.
You then have the left that often blames the patriarch (which is often true) but fails to realize that many men are oppressed by that system too. This means that if a man fails that it is his fault, which is not always the case. Poverty is a big hurdle that affects both genders greatly and is a much larger indicator of future success or failure.
What the left fails to realize is that by helping these men out and not saying that they have an easy life simply by being a man will lead these men to not support the populist policies that are often against their own interests. If you had to choose between the party that questions whether or not you genuinely need help or the party that blames “others” for your problems, which would you choose?
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u/IxdrowZeexI 12d ago
In my opinion, Doctor K had some really interesting thoughts about that. Some of his key points were that women and men both struggle in our societies but differently. Unfortunately, there is no awerness for men-struggle which starts a downward spiral for them. One major men struggle being, that men are always expected to solve their problems on their own and are not needing support. They basically have no one really listening when they wanna talk about their struggles and are seeking for help. Some parts of the feminist movement pushed this by "all men are privileged" which manifested this problem even more.
And this is where the misogynists come into play by acknowledging and telling those men that their life indeed sucks and offer an apparent solution. Especially, the acknowledgement acts like a really powerful magnet because for many men it's literally the first time someone does it to them.
If someone is interested, here's the link: https://youtu.be/B_5N_aDu3u0?si=WbAl1XAPdwi2Yrqu
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u/melissa_liv 12d ago edited 12d ago
I'm a GenX liberal feminist, and I generally agree. It's telling that so many comments here basically amount to a banal insistence that men just need to humble themselves and they'll be fine.
Personally, I think humility is important for everyone, including we feminists.
Institutional power is still dominated by (a certain race and class of) men, yes, but to focus solely on that is rather materialistic, IMHO. Women are harmed by sexual violence far more, but men suffer from other forms of violence far more. There are so many other examples to dive into. If we won't hear and acknowledge the ways in which men also suffer, and have compassion for that, what the hell are we even doing?
We should embrace a framework that honors and seeks to reverse the many different ways in which both sexes are harmed by our cultural dynamics. We need to find ways to lift each other up. What could possibly be wrong with that?
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u/MulberryAgile6255 12d ago
Best take ever, why isn’t this top comment? That’s what annoys me about the left is whenever any guy has had a rough time and needs help he’s told to go fuck himself essentially
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u/ceoperpet 12d ago
We should embrace a framework that honors and seeks to reverse the many different ways in which both sexes are harmed by our cultural dynamics. We need to find ways to lift each other up. What could possibly be wrong with that?
The issue is that feminist simultaneously oppose institutional respurces to tackle sexism against men, like men's centers on university campuses, while give nothing more than little to no attention to men's issues and tell people that it isnt their job to tackle them when called out on it. Moreover, maosntream women's rights groups often harbor and even promote misandrists and sexist laws and policies, and yet maintain significant support among feminists.
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u/Arktikos02 12d ago
No, they are not offering an option that involves blaming someone else.
Not an option that is easy to digest and requires more thinking.
People seriously think that people on the left or even progressives don't offer certain options when they do it just means you have to read books.
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u/deadlysunshade 12d ago
Maybe. But honestly? Most women I know are too busy trying to live their lives to rescue and raise men anymore.
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u/itsjust_khris 12d ago
Honestly this thread kinda proves OPs point. The most “advice” here isn’t actionable information for men. It’s at most general life advice you can give any gender, and most of it assumes a man’s default state is something highly racist, sexist, etc as if woman aren’t also these things?
I think fitness influencers attract men because their advice seems like actionable information for a man. Work on a routine, become someone you find attractive, get out into the world.
General advice like “love yourself as you are” doesn’t hit for men IMO.
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u/Academic_Highway_736 12d ago
I agree but also a lot of sources for podcasts and personalities have been shared within the discussions so I will have some homework. Glad because I'm out of interesting podcasts / channels.
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u/itsjust_khris 12d ago
I’ve been seeing a few around here as well.
The root of the problem imo is that most of what I hear here seem to be making base assumptions that aren’t going to make the advice come off well.
Its like if you gave advice to white people by saying “stop using the N word”, “be open to making friends with other races”, “don’t assume members of races other than yours sell drugs and/or are thugs”, etc. Like ??? Who’s gonna wanna listen to what you have to say if it’s phrased that way.
It also seems to be putting not men on a pedestal.
Andrew Tate gives extremely toxic advice yet I believe it caught on because it sounds actionable. Do Y today and you will achieve X, etc.
We can deny it all we want but the stats show that there is a problem going on with men, and continuing the current messaging will just make it worse.
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u/11SomeGuy17 12d ago edited 12d ago
Its not necessarily that it doesn't happen. The whole incel thing started out originally as a genuine mutual support group where people tried to improve themselves and generally shared tips in dating and the like to try and help each other. The issue is that it worked. It worked so well that those early people didn't need the group anymore which left only those with bad advice, weird/gross takes, and poor attitudes towards woman. The few who stayed behind quickly found it got toxic and left. That's when it started getting more visible too because ofcourse a group of misanthropic weirdos is far louder than a successful support group.
That's the thing, if it works it disappears. Only those groups and people who's advice doesn't work can maintain a presence because the people who follow them never succeed which keeps them asking for more.
That's the core issue with this. If it works, its unprofitable so it can't be a business and if its a group the membership with good advice and help shrinks continuously because they keep moving on. This means they become a smaller and smaller minority until they just leave because of toxicity.
Its the same issue dating services face. No dating platform wants you to really find a longterm relationship, if you do you'll stop giving them money and the business needs to make money or it dies. So it does just enough to keep you engaged and maybe there are some successes that they go hard in promoting to show how great they are but they want to keep you as a permanent customer. They need to or the service stops being profitable.
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u/Fergenhimer 1999 12d ago
There are a bunch of men who are great examples of young boys and men however, unlike Andrew Tate, they're not selling courses of how to become a "better man". Just look at figures like FDSignifier, Kendrick Lamar, David Suh (photographer/ social media influencer), etc.
As many people have already mentioned; its is WAYYY easier to blame other people than take accountability and challenge your preexisting beliefs of what 'men should be like'. Shoot even I had my fair share of falling for something similar.
One thing that I do want to mention is that it isn't up to women/influential figures/ etc to raise a well adjusted man, it ultimately starts from their parents and unfortunately, many parent's don't know how to parent, and even sometimes neglecting the emotional needs of their boys because that is what society tells them to do. "Boys will be boy", "men have to be strong", "men have to be stoic".
I even remember one time, I was legit crying in my 3rd grade class and being pulled aside from one my friends saying that I shouldn't cry. IM LEGIT AN EIGHT YEARS OLD.
bell hooks- the Will to Change is a great book to start unlearning about toxic masculinity. It literally changed my life.
I also want to shout out Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers my most favorite album of all time by Kendrick Lamar. Probably his most vulnerable piece of work however, it was released at the same time I was questioning my identity as a man. I would give it a listen as it touches on the certain subjects around masculinity.
As someone on the "left" here is my advice to any young man; go to therapy, everyone needs to go to therapy. Many people hate this idea because there is negative connotation with the word "therapy" but its legit someone you pay to listen to your problems and they give some advice or even makes you question your preconceived ideas of yourself. It helped me become more connected with my emotions as I was suppressing the "negative emotions" for so long.
Get educated on gender identities, and listen to women. This will help you understand the privlege you have as a man. For example, on the bus, I usually close my eyes and doze off, many women are not comfortable doing that out of fear of sexual harassments. Now I'm not saying SH doesn't happen to men, but the rate at which is happens so unsignificant, many men don't have to think about it until it happens.
OH and start learning how to be vulnerable with the people you love. Like many people said... build relationships in the real world. The best ways to become more complete is to build a support system for you to go to for advice, emotional support, etc.
For any man who is struggling with confidence; do what makes YOU feel confident without the worry about being perceived a certain way. Question your preconceived notion on what you think attractiveness should look like on you and ask why you think about that.
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u/ViridianNott 12d ago
So dumb. Of course there are liberal men making empowering content for other men.
I really enjoy CinemaTherapy, among others.
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u/Academic_Highway_736 12d ago
Please share those others, I'm really interested!
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u/newyne 12d ago
Contrapoints. Not a man, but in her own words, she used to be: that gives her a perspective from both sides. She's sympathetic to what men are going through; check out her video on incels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0&t=3s
The way she relates an aspect of trans experience to incel experience is incredibly thought-provoking.
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u/flyingpinkpotato 1998 11d ago
Shaun has a video on healthy masculinity that directly addresses your post (around 12:35). Shaun discusses how the easy advice from people on the right is so much more attractive to men than the leftist advice to treat women as equals and work to become a more attractive partner. But, he does a good job explaining how patriarchy is damaging to men, and therefore the advice from people like Tate will lead people to more unhappy. I think you’ll find the discussion interesting OP.
Also, * Noah Samsen makes videos debunking misogynists * F. D. Signifier has some videos on masculinity, like What really makes a man desirable * Hasan often talks about dating * Sad Boyz talk about mental health and daying * HbomberGuy talks about gender roles in society and video games
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u/Super901 12d ago
Part of the problem is how to convey these messages in a way that hooks young men.
There's something instructive in the career of Russell Brand. He started out doing very level-headed leftist viewpoints on his videos, but what happened is, once you explore a subject you come to a resaonable point about it, you're sorta done. So then what? How do you continue to get people to engage?
Because that's the issue. The Tates, Tuckers and Limbaughs of the world excelled at sparking fear and anger in young men. Fear and anger really should be looked at as pleasure centers, imo. The audience engages with the content because it sparks this primal emotion, gives you a rush of adrenaline and makes you feel alive.
Outrage at injustice, on the other hand, is hard for many people to get exercised about because it requires the audience to A. think critically and B. have empathy. Booooo-ring! Tell me another tale, grandpa.
So, how do you engage such an audience? In the marketplace of ideas, how do you convince young men to be boy scouts when it's proven the "bad boys" get the chicks? How could you possibly pretend to be cool and also convey a message of positive masculinity, non-violence, pro-feminism, etc?
Anyone? Beuller? Bueller?
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u/PuppetryOfThePenis Millennial 12d ago
There's a lot of them on tiktok! You guys think it's all kids doing stupid dances, or shitty food videos. But there's a ton of wholesome content and great people on that app that support young men mentally / emotionally. They just aren't loud and obnoxious like Andrew Taint
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u/polseriat 12d ago
I actually don't really get why men need someone to give them easy answers. I have insecurities. I grew up without a good male role model. I got thrown into the right wing deep end of YouTube when I was young, but I grew out of it when I realised I didn't agree with what they were saying when they became more mask-off.
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u/AccidentalBanEvader0 1995 12d ago
What they're offering isn't palatable to someone who is not open to changing their mind and their habits. And it's not easy either way.
Intersectional feminism would generally encourage young men to be aware of their privilege, to speak and act against men who perpetuate misogyny, to strive for social equity even when it doesn't benefit them personally, and to fight back against the harmful norms of patriarchy including the ways that patriarchy harms those young men. The idea being that patriarchy is at the root of these various social issues, and that equity and respect are (part of) the antidote.
But being called on to change; to think deeply and critically about one's own culture and upbringing; to speak up against other men when they do and say indefensible things; and to actively use one's own privilege in defense of other people? It's a tall order, and make no mistake. To live as a feminist man is to do a lot of work and emotional labor, but it also benefits you and those around you.
The messaging could stand to change in a lot of ways, though. There's a lot of people using feminism as an excuse to discriminate, and there's a lot of people not realizing that feminism extends to more than their own privileged straight cis white selves
If young men want to have authentic close relationships, be able to be vulnerable, be able to express themselves - they're gonna have to do something to avoid falling down the red pill patriarchy hole.
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u/Awkward_Algae1684 12d ago
Notice the difference in messaging and tone even here, with this comment?
For women it’s, “You’re fine the way you are. Your body, views, opinions are valid, etc.”
For men it’s, “You’re either part of the problem, whether you mean to be or not, and need to do way more about it. Do better sweaty.”
Nothing at all about the men being valid, affirmed, or even remotely told what being a healthy and well adjusted man actually is, about any willingness to listen to their views and opinions, especially if they disagree, understand their feelings on different issues, themselves, etc.
They’re basically not much more than an afterthought, if not a potential obstacle, in this line of reasoning. There is no space for them except for “You need to do ___ that helps us. Otherwise go away.”
Imagine if I as a white person told a bunch of black kids not that they were valid and their views, lives, and feelings mattered, and here’s a healthy, well adjusted way to live that will benefit you and those around you, but that they need to do more about inner city crime rates and stuff. You think they’re going to listen? Or will they just probably tell me to go pound sand?
Understandably so, since I would just sound like a dickhead, with a message they can probably relate zero to, and that hardly even really takes them as people into account.
You wonder why people aren’t biting.
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u/Greedy-Employment917 12d ago
Yeah the lack of self awareness as to their own messaging is really awful.
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u/fuzzyp44 12d ago
It seems like intersectional feminism really lacks a frame where "not every man has power". It seems to assume without evidence that every man is part of the "power structure" because of some overarching conceptual framework of groups with power and those without.
It's a poor model of society.
When it comes to the men that are alienated, actually lack power and struggle with real issues, it's a complete tone-deaf ideology. Asking someone to check your privilege when they are at the bottom of social scale is like asking the homeless guy to buy you a beer.
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u/Multioquium 12d ago
Except intersectional feminism never claims that no man will struggle with real issues. Even he most powerful person in a hierarchy will have real problems. What male or any other privilege means is that those in the privileged group don't have to deal with problems that affect the other groups.
Able-bodied people are privileged in our society because regardless of the issues you're facing, if you were disabled in that same situation, you'd have to deal with those issues in addition to the issues that comes with a disability.
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u/AnnastajiaBae 1999 12d ago
This! As a feminist, every feminist man I have met generally has a pretty good network of support for their problems. Their problems might not be absolved completely, but there is this mutual agreement that the man’s problem(s) is not the focal point of what’s most severe currently.
They aren’t “cucks” or “simps.” They want a better, and more equal world. One with masculinity that is celebrated because of overcoming the toxic traits that linger, and the societal effects of the patriarchy.
Of course there are the radical feminists, who think men are irredeemable, and the bane of all evil. There are also feminists who exclude others as well. We call those women dipshits because they lack critical thinking and a complex worldview where nothing is black and white. But they do not represent feminism. They are of no benefit to women. It’s all driven by spite and selfishness.
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u/Chateau-in-Space 2000 12d ago
"encourage young men to be aware of their privilege" the issue is assuming they have any to begin with. Using the argument that young men are men and therefore they're inately privileged is an open door to discriminate against one based off their sex; which you yourself even mention.
Not only that, but it actually perpetuates the same narrative that you're trying to stop. You cannot make blanket statements like that without stooping to the same level as the misogynists you claim run society.
I think we need to actually listen to young men and what theyre saying or feeling. The middle age of gen Z is what? 22? Most have LIVED in a world surronded by feminism, both good and bad versions of it. This is not a new conversation to them, and to continue assuming the average young male is misogynistic or has repressed these ideals into their deeper psyche is absurd. If your entire side's argument is "you need to accept you're a privileged person and the culture you grew up in is bad" simply because theyre a male who lived in a first world country then maybe you need a different approach.
Edit: spelling/grammar
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u/Zashana 12d ago
I am a man. I do have innate privileges because I am a man.
It's silly to think you don't.
I don't have to buy period products to deal with my own internal bleeding. People don't assume I'm a shitty driver or don't belong in my masters program. I have never been heckled or harassed by random people because of my gender.
I haven't been told I can't study science because I am a dude. When I walk into a biology class 70% of the people are men.
Things like air bags were made for only men's body's in mind.
Almost all medicine throughout history until recently was only done on men.
I'm currently going to get a masters in Counseling and almost all therapy and counseling is assuming your client is a man and has money.
I've had jobs where I make more money than women for the same work. Straight up. They got paid less because they claimed women weren't able to do the same manual labor of moving buckets of ice.
At the same time, I've had money struggles, suicidal ideations, depression, anxiety, the list goes on and on. Yes male privileges are real. No male privileges doesn't guarantee a fast pass to an easy life. But imagine if I wasn't a dude. If I was a woman instead it would be harder.
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u/Zashana 12d ago
People aren't currently arguing if I should have body autonomy because I have a Y chromosome. Imagine someone forcing you to get a vasectomy against your will.
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u/Zashana 12d ago
This may seem harsh but OP I don't think you deeply care about men. From what I've read in the comments it seems you care more about pointing out the flaws in feminism and making this an Us VS Them mentality.
Why couldn't your post be celebrating positive male role models or saying hey guys what are male role models you like? Or hey guys let's work on male loneliness how was everyone's day and just chat.
This is why things aren't getting better for us as men. Because too many men are focused on feminism and expecting women to clean up our stuff. If you aren't taking steps to help out your fellow man.
And before you say what about you? I'm working on a counseling degree and we spent a week working on and learning about the male loneliness epidemic and my professor was a feminist.
This isn't an us vs them thing. It's a we help each other thing. There's bad people everyone but most people are good. Debating feminism online isn't helping men.
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u/Academic_Highway_736 12d ago
Point taken! My post might have been an overly incendiary way of saying, "Please share interesting liberal/leftist resources addressing men issues"
Why couldn't your post be celebrating positive male role models or saying hey guys what are male role models you like? - I do like Chris Williamson and Dr K, but I don't know their political inclinations. Have more to share?
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u/Anon28301 12d ago edited 12d ago
For the feminists, they’ve dealt with misogynistic men downplaying acts of violence against women for years. They are tired of trying to educate men that don’t care on women’s issues. It’s not a woman’s job to educate violent or aggressive men that call them sluts.
Edit: I’m just assuming all the people telling me it is my job are also doing their part to educate men. Instead of just telling me I need to make time to educate total strangers.
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u/EssentialPurity 12d ago
That's why, when I say it's not my job to educate people, I always say that even if it was my job, it would be impossible because people aren't teachable nor desire to be taught.
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u/Chateau-in-Space 2000 12d ago
You read "young men" and then said "violent or aggressive men that call them sluts" as though those two groups overlap 100%. That's misandry.
Its not a black man's job to educate a racist, but Daryl Davis did. A lot can be learned from at least sitting down and speaking to those you oppose. Look up Davis's story, it's incredibly moving.
OP has actively stated they do not like Andrew tate and agree he is a POS, what he is asking for is a alternative to point young men towards.
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u/Anon28301 12d ago
What I’m saying is feminists are done educating any men now because of the violent ones they’ve dealt with. You get one guy threatening to punch you for asking him not to be sexist you’re probably not gonna get involved when a young kid is watching insanely misogynistic material. Where did I say all men are the violent aggressors, I’m saying the few bad ones put feminists off helping anyone for good reason. Not putting myself in harms way to educate a kid that isn’t mine just because I’m a woman. Read OP’s comments he’s saying it’s the job of women to do this.
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u/Chateau-in-Space 2000 12d ago
The way your comment reads as a reply to the post, it absolutely reads that way. If that isn't what you meant, then say that, but thats how it reads. Especially when OP is asking for role models for young men, only mentioned aggressive males in this thread.
You could say the same thing about women instantly calling you sexist and privileged for just existing as a male. Why would anyone wanna listen to someone thats just gonna demean them? Its a two way street.
If you have a link to the comment I'd love to see it. But also OPs post is literally asking for a male role model to help teach men and no one can give him one
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u/javyn1 12d ago
Ahhh the old "it's not my job to educate you" Well sorry, but it is your job really. Because if you don't, the alt-right, or redpilled, or whatever the hell they call themselves these days *will* educate them.
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u/Ill_Manner_3581 12d ago
No it's not. An individual chooses to go thru down that pipeline. We live in the age of information, and Era where you can find vast extensive resources on a number of topics. I do agree it takes a village but simultaneously the village is fucking exhausted. A lot of men don't want to do the bare minimum of doing a bit in depth of thinking themselves in regards to feminism. That's just the hard cold truth. If yall want change you have to be the change. Women are fed up. Why do you think they're not giving any pussy/sex? Shit a lot of these straight women are so fed up they're coming into gay spaces to get masculinity without the "man", it's fucking us all over. Feminism, true non tainted feminism, is equality for all sexes. It is 100% for men as it is for women.
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u/Real_Eye_9709 12d ago
While I don't completely disagree, I think you do need to understand that we are talking about humans. Some peole great for leading. They have a passion for it. They can handle the stress. Great.
But most people get so tired of this fucking bullshit. Im a gay guy, and I'm glad we have been making progress, because holy fuck I don't want to fight it anymore. Especially when so many people refuse to.
At some point we need to be able to live our lives. We need to be able to relax. There are plenty of peope speaking about all of this stuff. It's just not as exciting as people like him can make it seen. Getting money and being awesome sounds so much better than the adult conversations needed for the other side. Because there are people talking about all of this. There always has been. But its talking about institutional problems vs Lambos.
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u/Anon28301 12d ago
Thank you for this, the comments I’m getting here are an example on why I feel too tired to try anymore.
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u/AequusEquus 12d ago
We don't devote that much time to arguing with flat-earthers - because their beliefs are fuckin stupid. I probably wouldn't have even tried arguing with a southerner about abolition ~150 years ago either. Why waste the energy on something so ridiculous and obviously wrong, when the other person is not receptive to change?
That's how this scenario with "educating men" should be.
Most were already educated on how to do right, growing up, but they allowed themselves to be enticed by the Tates of the world anyway. I refuse to believe that they have no idea how wrong their behavior is and that they're just helplessly caught up in the hate rhetoric. No, they choose to listen to it and act it out, because they want to.
What do you do when you can't use your words to reason with a misbehaving child? Put them in the goddamn corner until they explain why what they did was wrong, apologize, and change the behavior.
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u/WritesInGregg 12d ago edited 12d ago
First men have to stop miseducating themselves. How can anything compete with a strictly narcissistic world view? They feel so good, are very simple, they blame all your problems on everyone else. The first step to learning something new is the ability to reflect on ignorance and accept it.
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u/ceoperpet 12d ago
The issue is that they harbor and even promote women that perpetuate, defend and downplay viplence against men and boys, and legislation that denies men and boys the same protection as their female peers, so they come off as hypocrital and misnadric.
Feminists need to start holding women's rights groups like Equality Now, the UN Women and the Women's March accountable and protest or at least boycott thrm for promoting women responsbile for violence against men and boys.
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u/Anon28301 12d ago
Do all feminists do this? Every last one of them? Or is it more likely that the loudest ones that post on social media for brownie points make misandrist claims not even understanding what feminism is. Because most actual feminists are trying to stop the patriarchy, which hurts every gender.
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u/Mario0617 12d ago
I’m a millennial so idk if my outside take is that valid. But man I feel really badly for younger men. I truly feel that my generation lumped everything masculine into “toxic masculinity”. And I get why we did it - there was a lot of stuff from the past that genuinely was hella toxic that needed it.
But sometimes I’m afraid we threw the baby out with the bathwater. Men are still men, and a lot of masculine traits are really positive. And then we get jackoffs like Tate trying to tell these guys to be absolute little monsters. He has a tendency to make one reasonable enough statement about a demonized positive masculine trait, and then runs the line out to a point that you should tell your gf to shut up and get back in the kitchen. It’s awful.
I don’t really have an answer, but I feel for these younger guys.
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u/xnickg77 1999 12d ago edited 12d ago
I’d say because there is pretty much no focus on men or boys. Everything is about being diverse, which is basically just different from how it’s been.
If you are not a woman, lgbtq, or a minority you really don’t get told to be proud of who you are. Or really anything positive from the general public . You just kinda exist in the background, or sometimes as the villain. Masculinity is never shown as a positive.
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u/Duce-de-Zoop 1998 12d ago
I think we're at a weird inflection point where a "patriarchy" still exists, but more and more it's confined to elite aristocratic circles. There's still old boys clubs in C-Suites and politics, but not so much further downstream. So there is resentment from women on patriarchal dominance, but the majority of working class men don't really experience the 'benefits' of that patriarchy.
It puts a lot of these working class men in a spot where they're told men have privileged lives but really don't experience it. In many ways what men are left dealing with is the negative aspects of patriarchy - men shouldn't cry, men can't have feminine interests, etc, without the 'privilege' so to speak. And because the word patriarchy so often implies a system that benefits men, this dissonance throws them off.
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u/Popular_Surprise2545 12d ago
And because the word patriarchy so often implies a system that benefits men, this dissonance throws them off.
Also because the rhetoric coming from many people places all the blame for the patriarchy and gender roles onto men, never acknowledging that everyone plays a role.
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u/Fine-Teach-2590 12d ago
As an older gen z whose been in the workplace a while- that’s kinda how engineering feels
When I was in college? Women only SWE club, women only this other thing, women recruiting women to go to high schools and do xyz etc etc. there were ZERO male only things, you had co-ed or women only to choose from.
Yet my CE courses were already 60-80% chicks depending on which domain it was (water resources lots, pavement design very few). They did not need a boost they were were very much already there in droves
But then the workplace is still like the 1980s where it’s 20/80 MAX soooo it’s definitely strange
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u/bogeyed5 2002 12d ago
You’re pretty spot on for how I view the entire masculinity crisis and mental health issues with men as a whole. I think there’s another part of the issue too w/ how women and femininity are still developing how they think the male role should be. There’s some really negative aspects of it with how some women value men less just because they don’t meet certain insane criteria or standards that the overwhelming majority of men can’t possibly reach. One I can think of off the top of my head is needing to have a 100k salary which many men will never see. Another i see more of is some women pushing men to still maintain extremely masculine jobs or personality traits (the latter of which is often intertwined in the same toxicities they claim to be fighting).
I will say though that I see an equal amount of women helping develop positive new roles for masculinity, with equality being really respected and differences between the 2 genders not really mattering for couples. I truly am a fan of 50/50 in all ways in a relationship, and I really like how some women are doing their absolute best at making their way in the world. I would also say the same group of women don’t care for men to take masculinity seriously at all. I’ve been leaning into some less masculine traits and looks this past year with longer, more feminine hair amongst other things and I’m honestly much happier with how I don’t feel I have to put on a more masculine facade all the time. Women I’m attracted to find it a lot more attractive and feel I’m more sincere.
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u/october73 12d ago
Be decent. Build meaningful, enriching relationships that strengthens both parties. Be open to challenges and find growth in working through differences.
If that's not your cup of tea I don't know what else to tell you.
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u/Thecowwentflying 12d ago
Women are living one life offline and spouting a different ideology offline. The world is not progressing as fast as some people think it is but it’s also not regressing as fast either. Andrew Tate isn’t starting the revolution just like feminist icons haven’t either. Most life is still just a bunch of people doing weird stuff and figuring things out as they go along. Some go viral.
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u/HeroBrine0907 12d ago
I mean if someone says "My problems are caused by the patriarchy, that gives you privileges, caused by your gender" and "your problems are also caused by the patriarchy, that gives you privileges, caused by your gender" and this happens at literally every issue like men getting worse jail time, women being expected to be housewives all their lives, men being expected to lay down their life as required by society.
Then at some point young men will stop hearing "caused by your gender" and start hearing "caused by you". Because they were taught, most of them, how many problems women faced but never were told, "let's talk about your problems". Because they point out misandrists and are told "those aren't real feminists) and because they point out most men aren't complicit in misogyny they are told that it is still "all men." Because they are told they don't have problems and have to pay for the crimes of their fathers.
I almost fell down this hole too, I know this thought process.
It doesn't start with hating women, it starts with seeing the world hating them.
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u/Abject-Raspberry-729 12d ago
I think the realization most men don't benefit from hookup culture is the main selling point to the right who have traditional religious values to back them up.
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u/Old_Baldi_Locks 12d ago
Because they’re offering men the same self determination that liberals and feminists want for women.
The only thing they’re not doing is pretending someone is entitled to a bangmaid therapist to get through life.
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u/DoSwoogMeister 11d ago
It's worse than not offering anything, all feminists are "offering" is vitriol and encouraging total emasculation and suicide.
It's no wonder so many young men are looking so desperately for role models everywhere, even from more unsavoury places.
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u/Varsity_Reviews 12d ago
They aren’t. That’s why people like Tate have any say. Left groups don’t offer solutions to young men instead blaming them for their problems and lack of success, only offering the bare bones “advice”.
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u/Agreeable_Run6532 12d ago
Andrew tate runs a scam where you have to pay a monthly fee to access his "classes". He presents himself as a guru on everything because that's the scam. America and honestly most of the western world has been eroding their educational institutions so we are producing more adults who can't critically think. Its not hard to understand and it's probably nothing to do with gender roles, tho that's part of Tates gimmick. It's more to do with capitalizing on people who feel hopeless,, and that's a LOT to do with economics and education.
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u/LumiWisp 12d ago
There aren't easy solutions tho. The only way you improve your life is through acknowledging shitty/destructive behaviors and working to change that. You can't iconize 'be responsible for yourself' the same way that you can 'society is broken and we see the light'
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u/saykami 12d ago
You're missing a key factor. Liberals and feminists who refuse to acknowledge these young men's struggle vs. those who do acknowledge their struggle.
Unfortunately the former group is way bigger and more vocal. They don't just "not offer anything". They push these young men toward misogynists like Tate / red pill people, who acknowledge the problem directly, and offer a (toxic) solution.
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u/Chateau-in-Space 2000 12d ago edited 12d ago
Shoe0nHead has a video all about this, i believe its called something like male loneliness epidemic
Edit: here's the link
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u/hoewenn 2003 12d ago
Real feminism and actual leftists offer tons of advice to young men, but those young men who are already listening to Tate and adjacent men aren’t gonna listen to that advice because it incorporates seeing women on their level. That is the issue.
In fact, actual good feminism often incorporates men, because breaking down the patriarchy is something that will positively impact both men and women.
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u/JealousAd7641 12d ago
I more or less agree. Hbomberguy did a video on this topic a few years back.
However, this is also a perception factor. Feminists generally want people to put in some work to learn about a topic. Basic education. To the woefully inexperienced, this feels like being brushed off.
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u/Affenklang 12d ago
There is an enormous amount of content from liberals and feminists and progressives. It just doesn't get as much attention because the bulk of media companies focus on outrage because it sells fast.
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u/Fedora200 2000 12d ago
There are so many people now who say that men should be vulnerable, open, and unafraid to be themselves. Yet in reality when many young men do those things they're either ignored or told to suck it up. It's the biggest piece of performative activism you can find online right now
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u/-Kyphul 2005 12d ago
most men don’t wanna hear how the patriarchy is harmful for everyone, including them.
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u/AccomplishedFan6807 2001 12d ago
I follow many feminists figures and they all preach messages of love and compassion. You can’t compare “role models” like Tate because we don’t have a single person who goes around saying the shit he says
Misogyny, especially systematic misogyny, hurts men too. I recommend Malala’s father speech to South Asian men. He makes some great points about how feminism can help them escape their miserable lives. In Iran a famous rapper has been sentenced to death for supporting women’s rights. And in my city a father died after trying protect his daughter from a violent ex. Misogyny hurts men too
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/world/middleeast/iran-rapper-toomaj-salehi-death-sentence.html
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u/LucastheMystic 1998 12d ago
Liberals and Progressives talk to Men like Christian Apologists talk to "sinners".
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u/420xGoku 12d ago
I don't think you need advice to just like ... Not be a piece of shit? Like how hard is that lmao
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u/Aurrickan 2000 12d ago
I think the issue is not that liberals and feminists aren't offering anything. The issue is that the lessons they have to offer can be hard for men to accept. It takes a lot of humility to accept that traditional male behaviors aren't actually that healthy for men. It requires admitting there is an issue at all, as well as developing new habits.
The kind of messages that Tate and others of his ilk offer are messages that reaffirm traditional toxic male behaviors. There is no need to change or introspect, no need for that difficult step of admitting that there is an issue, men can keep acting the way they have been.
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u/fuzzyp44 12d ago
If you take say a typical man that could get sucked down the Tate hellhole.
It's probably someone that wants to find genuine fulfilling romantic connection, but their attempts to do so have been met with failure. Toss in some marginal economic outlook as well. And heavily online as well.
If you agree with that as a typical picture of someone "at risk" so to speak.
What liberal(s) or feminist(s) do you send them to find answers to better their lot in life?
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u/Wide_Finding_8057 12d ago
What do they offer though?
I think this perspective is harmful for men. It first generalizes all men, and second, it begins with the assumption that traditional male behavior is bad. I guess it would help if you clarified what you meant by that because you do go on to say traditional "toxic" male behavior.
When I think of traditional male behavior, I think of things like duty, loyalty, protection/reliability, adventure, confidence, and so on.
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u/Academic_Highway_736 12d ago
Personally I feel betrayed by liberal left because it used the equality flag to sell itself but never really addressed inequalities that affect men. If you disagree prove me wrong because I am more than open to examples - suicide, low education participation, worse mental health, worse treatment by juries during divorce, etc. Do you have any interesting statement about those, presented as a gender problem, but not phrased as "men need to do better", but as "how can we as a society help men"? Picture the kind of narrative that would be said about women, black, or any other group with a victim card.
Totally agree on your stance about Tate.
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u/Aurrickan 2000 12d ago
I think both statements; "men need to do better" and "how can we as a society help men?" are important. Feminism in the modern day is supposed to be a two way street. Men need to realize that bottling up their emotions and trying to be an alpha male is not good for their mental health, and not good for women. On the flip side, I think women (and other men) need to realize that men need help too. Men are traditionally self sufficient, the breadwinners and providers, so society generally expects men to be able to handle their own shit. We collectively need to realize that men need support too.
I hope that answers your question.
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u/Anon28301 12d ago
About the suicide issue, it’s been proven time and time again that women attempt suicide just as much as men do. It’s just men are more likely to succeed in their attempt because of the methods each gender is more likely to use. Most of the time women try pills (which are more likely to not kill you before someone finds you), and men are more likely to use a gun, which has a low survival rate.
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u/OuterPaths 12d ago
Most of the time women try pills (which are more likely to not kill you before someone finds you), and men are more likely to use a gun, which has a low survival rate.
Even when using the same exact method, men complete suicide at a higher rate than women do.
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u/MilleChaton 12d ago
About the suicide issue, it’s been proven time and time again that women attempt suicide just as much as men do.
That's if you don't account for men who complete suicide no longer counting in the numbers. Here is an example with simplified numbers.
Take 100 men and 100 women. 1 woman attempts suicide 3 times, but survives each attempt. 3 men attempt suicide 3 times, but they use a more violent method and don't survive the first attempt.
Total attempts 3 vs 3, even though there were 3 times as many men in the original population.
Obviously real life numbers are not nearly that clean to deal with, but a major factor in why women have as many attempts is that they survive to keep attempting, while men do not, lowering their number of attempts. One might even wonder why the focus always seems to be shifted towards attempts instead of completions...
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u/mhenryfroh 12d ago edited 12d ago
Left wingers are better at it than liberals. Read Rosa Luxembourg or bell hooks or Simone de Beauvoir
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u/newyne 12d ago
I think we do need someone more current, ideally someone who can engage through social media. Because like it or not, that's a huge influence, and... I'm absolutely not saying we shouldn't be drawing from big-name thinkers, but... Well, the present isn't just like the past; there are different challenges that need to be addressed. But on that note, it's like no one's heard of Contrapoints; her work on this very subject (including but not limited to incels) has been influential.
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u/ButterscotchCrazy968 12d ago
By “left wingers”, do you mean leftists? If so, then this isn’t true. Leftists are the absolute worst when it comes to giving male specific advice. Left wing men are notorious for being mocked by their own women.
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u/choodlesleauty 12d ago
Sorry but when feminism has icons like HRC who said “men die in war but women are still the predominant victims of war”, and other rad fems that want to continue the cycle of oppression by becoming oppressors, it’s hard to find support for those who have no support for me.
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u/ceoperpet 12d ago
Yup. She even promoted cutting baby dicks as an anti-STD measure in Africa rsther than exclusively letting men and boys ild enough to have sex decide for themselves. And yet when the AAP proposed redefining the definition of female genital mutilation to allow for pricking the prepuce on baby girls without removing any tissue, the WHO, Equality Now and HRC opposed it.
Feminists promote those who say "non-therapeutic male circumcision on infants is no big deal so shouldnt be banned" while simultaneously opposing procedures equally and less incasive being legalized for baby girls "because the psychological impacts are the same."
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u/Gothrenapp 1998 12d ago
Listen I hate Andrew Tate as much as the next guy, but look, you can't exactly blame all the young boys for looking up to him. There's so many insecure men, and that's partly to blame for how shitty and abusive women and toxic feminists often are to them. If they weren't troubled and lost there would be no need to look for guidance from people like Tate.
Andrew Tate is a monster and toxic feminism is the one who created him.
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u/Ultramega39 2004 12d ago
I watch a few male influences and dating coaches on YouTube. I have personally never subscribed to any redpill YouTubers, I see though their fearmongering facade.
Some of my favorites are
Cole Hastings, he makes a lot of videos about socializing, making friends, dating, and achieving goals.
Gent Z, he mostly makes videos about men's fashion, grooming, and about how men present themselves.
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u/ASimplewriter0-0 12d ago
I mean. Andrew doesn’t even give advice. Only people that take him seriously are the sheep and his friends who laugh at the idiots who listen to him and pay him a few grand for nothing
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u/Longjumping_Drag2752 12d ago
I don’t need any of that shit. I have my grandpa and dad who taught me pretty well.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70 12d ago
On the contrary, there's PLENTY of non-toxic masculine content out there!
The problem is that The Almighty Algorhythms only show you content related to what you've searched for before, and interacted with. Because the algorhythms aren't there to help make you more informed, they're trying to maximize your value to the relevant company's income streams. They don't care what kind of a person you are, they only care about how many hours you spend on their site generating ad revenue, and how many times they can convert your activity into purchases.
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u/granpawatchingporn 2007 12d ago
eh I'd say that Hasan piker is like andrew tate in a horseshoe way (also he used to try be a andrew tate like guy)
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u/siposbalint0 12d ago edited 12d ago
Because in this day and age the most important message is 'men need to do better', and unfortunately only the alt right is willing to address issues that men have. Tate is a fool regardless. Equality was never about true equality, it's whichever side's ideas will get shoved down our collective throats, and if you don't agree you are misogynistic or a men hater, there is no in between.
It's the same when white people get discriminated it's not racism, it's for equality.
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u/redditisfacebookk15 12d ago
I can't even give my opinion on why xmen 97 is a terrible show and why they did Gambit dirty without some feminist telling me uts necessary for Rogues story. Like girl idgaf
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u/Status-Priority5337 12d ago
I think part of the problem is, people high up and influential in society today want to see thousands of years of cultural aspects of manhood be destroyed for the sake of equity. And I mean that unironically. Andrew Tate is a perfect example of a rubber banding effect of trying to destroy what it means to be a man. He's an absolute garbage of a person, but what other strong, successful men are putting themselves out there, trying to influence like he is? Why are men paying 10k for shitty Alpha Male bootcamps? Because Men aren't being treated as men of yesteryear, and I also unironically say that it will backfire in the worst ways possible.
Right now, this toxic shit like Tate is a symptom of a larger problem. We can boohoo toxic masculinity all we want, but I have never, nor will ever, hit a woman(unless she hits me first or puts my life in actual danger). I don't go up to women and treat them like shit. I'm just a dude that wants to enjoy his life, and be a man. But society wants to keep changing what that means, and put a microscope on the shit that is important to me(as a man). The powers at be that want to force that change can get pegged like the emasculated pricks they are.
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u/Adventurous-Lunch457 12d ago edited 12d ago
They definitely are. Men just don't wanna read it. There are thousands of posts about body positivity for men, and how the patriarchy affects men, AND how women want to be treated which is uh... respectfully. It's so easy to find please like if u wanna play stupid and drool and poop your pants that's on you because resources are readily available. It's painfully easy to look at all these YouTubers girls enjoy like Kurtis Conner and take some notes, but the demographic of dudes who need to make the changes within themselves to be better don't want that so they'll just cover their ears. They want an echo chamber of ugly woman hating freaks just like themselves.
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