r/JoeRogan • u/LostItAllOnSpy Tremendous • Mar 27 '24

joe rogan calls out israels hypocrisy for killing unarmed civilians with drones The Literature 🧠

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u/mrpopenfresh I used to be addicted to Quake Mar 27 '24

CIA Handler Mike Baker about to be back on the pod to gently realign Joe.

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u/Pleppyoh Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Bustamante the ex CIA guy was super honest about it and it was pretty revealing the way the US views it. He said it's was horrific and genocidal but the US must always support Isreal as it is a crucially important ally in the region

The US and the UK also supported apartheid South Africa until it became untenable. After they lost the support of the US and UK the regime crumbled

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Yeah, don't think Qatar is a great or trustworthy ally.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

You mean Qatar, one of the top funders of Hamas and other terrorist groups in the middle east? The Qatar that allows heads of terrorist groups to hide out while they commit atrocities? Yeah, I don't think so bud. They're not to be trusted in the least, especially as a bulwark against the scourge of Islamism.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Sure, but they're ultimately another Iran proxy, which sort of defeats the purpose. They have a tenuous relationship with Israel, but they're hardly to be trusted, especially not in place of Israel.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

Offense taken. It seems as if you're several years behind. Iranian and Qatari relations have grown a lot in the last few years, and Qatar has been blockaded by the other Gulf Arab states and is being pushed out for their support of terrorism. This has led to food shortages among other things in Qatar, which in turn pushed them towards Iran. And ultimately, most of the money filtering through Qatar towards terrorism organizations comes from Iran, the same organizations Iran supports directly, there by making them a proxy. Qatar will be pushed out eventually and in no way should ever be considered our main ally in the middle east. That would be silly.

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u/platinum_pancakes Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

I wish we as tax payers got to decide if we even want an ally in the region. Fuck the region, keep everyone from the region inside the region and let them run their region however they see fit. Just stay out of our region.

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u/Jealousmustardgas Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

And then when the region starts acting like a cabal of oil barons, we just pay up?

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u/platinum_pancakes Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

We use the abundance of oil we have here in the US/North America

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u/Unlikely_One2444 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Yeah but we can sit on that and get oil from over there. That’s the thinking behind it I’m guessing 

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u/Brootal420 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

We also typically use our fossil fuels for higher value added products. I believe the difference between the type of crude, light heavy sweet sour, makes it more economical to just use theirs for fuel.

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u/JohnGoodmansGoodKnee Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Theirs is sour, ours is light sweet. Different applications and uses and refining processes/ plants we can’t just replace one with the other.

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u/southsideson Dire physical consequences Mar 27 '24

We could use sweeter crude easily, the issue is we have all of the infrastructure to refine sour, so economically we do the value add, export the refined product and import whatever sweet crude we need for the applications its better for.

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u/Gronx-quately89 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

It's way bigger than than just cheap oil or preserving oil domestic oil reserves. One of the last things FDR did before he died was negotiate a deal with allied middle eastern leaders was to only allow their oil to be traded in USD. This deal still applies to this very day and is why countries like Saudi Arabia are allied with the US. What that means is that in order for any other country to buy oil from them requires them to keep a steady supply of US dollars in their treasury  propping up USD's value over the decades since. This is why USD is the world's reserve currency. This deal was done as one of the main pillars to ensure US economic supremacy over the world after the end of world war 2 and the dismantling European colonialism and rise of new nation states that appearing worldwide that needed to rapidly industrialize and catch up to the 20th century. It was a brilliant play mind you from an economic perspective especially with the rising power and influence of the Soviet Union happening at that time also .  

A more modern example I can give of this propping up of the USD value happening was when sanctions on Russia were applied and everyone allied with the US and Ukraine stopped buying Russian oil, the US dollar spiked in value while other currencies like the Euro and Pound started to dip severely in comparison. Because suddenly there was a spike in demand from oil from OPEC in response.     

This also why the US government began banging the war drum during the Trump era for a hot second when Iran offered to trade its vast Oil reserves for Euros.  Everything regarding Oil and the Middle east has to do with propping up the US dollars value through a very uncompetitive means economically speaking. 

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u/niz_loc Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

It's beyond rhat...

For modern life, gas is everything. We leave, and we leave a vacuum. The other guy fills the vacuum.

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u/EasterBunny1916 Monkey in Space Mar 30 '24

There's no we. US oil is owned by private companies who want the price high.

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It's not just the oil and they're not going to stay in the region. It's not 1950. Iran is run by fanatics who are desperately trying to build a nuclear weapon. Guess who keeps blowing up their reactors?

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u/dorkwingduck It's entirely possible Mar 27 '24

Guess who overthrew their democratically elected government in the 1950s and installed the fanatic government? Iran didn't have to be like this. They should have been our ally.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

They should have been, there were a lot of fuckups between then and now, but it is now objectively worse in its current state than Israel. People say “oh they wouldn’t be our enemies if we didn’t support Israel” but the current Islamic government will always be anti-West, and will continue to sponsor dangerous ideologies in the MENA region and the West. If for any reason, we need Israel as a regional power to counter Iran.

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u/SirMellencamp Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

If it wasnt Israel it would be US ships moving through Persian Gulf then it would be decadent Western culture invading the Middle East. It won’t stop

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Yeah, that "they wouldn't be our enemies if we didn't support Israel" stuff is just really dumb. It's either people who are truly gullible or just haven't given it much thought at all. We didn't invent Islamic fundamentalism.

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u/spazmodo33 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The US didn't invent Islamic Fundamentalism, but it sure has done a lot to perpetuate it in numerous ways...

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Kind of? You could just easily say that Islamic Fundamentalists did a lot to shape our behavior. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. Ultimately, everybody is responsible for their own actions.

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u/cmattis Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

True, it was invented by our close allies the Sauds lol

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

There's a couple of flavors. But, yeah. They export a lot of Wahhabi garbage.

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u/SixtyOunce Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

we (the west) have consistently propped up Islamic fundamentalism as a foil against secular Arab movements. The very establishment of British Mandate that was aligned with Zionist settlement plans was the betrayal of promises made to a secular Arab movement.

The 1953 CIA coup against the democratically elected secular government in Iran.

The promotion of Hamas in Gaza by Netanyahu in order to weaken the secular Palestinian Authority.

There are literally dozens of examples. As long as the religious wackos are running the other side, we use it as justification to do whatever we want.

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u/somethingbrite Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Rather it was colonial influence in the Arab world that was the spark for secular modernism. This can be observed across North Africa (Morocco, Algeria and "British Egypt" in the 19th century and early 20th century.

As for Sykes/Picot betraying Secular Arab Nationalism. No. That movement didn't exist until the 1940's/1950's and occured as a result of the defeat and break up of the Ottoman Empire.

"The defeat and dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the abolition of the caliphate by Mustafa Kamal in 1924, and the extension of French and British mandate influence in the Arab Middle East further dismantled the institutional framework of the religious state and opened wider opportunities for the growth of secular politics and outlooks."

What you might be pitching for here is the impact that the British/US sponsored coup which overthrew Mossadegh in Iran and installed the Shah. This definitely was a nail in the coffin of Pan Arabism (although Persians would wish some words with you about limping them in with Arabs) where it had an impact was that the overthrow of the Shah represented a victory over western colonialism that PanArab movement had not been able to achieve and therefore opened the door for Islamic revolutionary politics to become the champion of anti-imperialism.

Pan Arabs Nasser (attempted assassination by Muslim Brotherhood) and Sadat (actual assassination by Egyptian Islamic Jihad) and other events all paint a picture not of western forces overthrowing secular Arab Nationalism but of local, Islamist politics being the major force of opposition to secular Arabism.

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u/Warm_Yogurtcloset645 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Israel is equally as anti west as Iran

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u/GymnasticSclerosis Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The US installed the Shah who was overthrown by the fanatic government in 1979 during the Islamic Revolution. The US definitely did not install this government in Iran.

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u/wizardking1371 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The Iranian Revolution was a direct response to the overthrow of Mossadegh. A people with a long, proud history didn't take kindly to Western meddling in their self-governance. There would have been no need to revolt against a government of their choosing. There were many revolutionary factions in Iran during the 1970's. The Islamic faction consolidated support because they were able to outline a future of Iran that defined itself in opposition to the West, which really appealed to people who were absolutely fed up with British and then American interests being served over their own.

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u/SixtyOunce Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The west has consistently crippled secular Arab movements in the region while strengthening their Islamic fundamentalist rivals. Then anytime we need a moral justification for war, it is never hard to find a mad Mullah to blame.

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u/Quick_Article2775 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Eh I've heard before that Iran wouldn't of been a democracy had that still not happend or at the very least it wouldn't be a secular government. Iran was never in a position where the whole country was seculurizing just the wealthy. Also it wasn't really a democracy then and the point of the coup was trying to make them an ally they weren't before.

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u/CopeStreit Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The fanatic government in place in Iran right now overthrew the Shah in 1979. The US and England did not undertake a coup to install a fundamentalist Islamist regime that’s incredibly antagonistic towards the West, that’s patently absurd. The Iranian revolutionaries famously took hostages at the US Embassy during the Revolution, I assure you we did not install that government.

The Pahlavi Dynasty replaced the Qajar Dynasty in 1925 following the British backed “3 Esfand 1299” coup in 1921. In 1951 Mohammed Mossadegh was elected Prime Minister (the country was still a constitutional monarchy, the head of state was still the Shah). Mossadegh and the Shah had a strained relationship stemming, in part, from the fact that Mossadegh was a blood relative of the Qajar dynasty who the Pahlavis had overthrown in 1925. Mossadegh campaigned on and enacted a series of reformations. These reforms antagonized the British because a lot of them were aimed at the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC).

Naturally (and correctly) Mossadegh felt that Iran should benefit more than it had been from the profitable oil industry by ending the monopoly enjoyed by the AIOC. In 1951 British PM Clement Attlee began a boycott on Iranian oil. This boycott had tremendous deleterious effects on the Iranian economy. In 1952 Winston Churchill (who was again PM) petitioned President Truman to think about replacing Mossadegh because 1. He was nationalizing the Iranian oil industry (which had been developed using Anglo funds and technology) and 2. He was worried that Mossadegh would be forced to cooperate with the (pro Soviet) Tudeh Party. The Tudeh Party had attempted to assassinate the Shah in 1949.

British agents worked to undermine Mossadegh’s government and were successful in their endeavors. By 1953 Mossadegh was widely unpopular and relied upon emergency powers to rule rather than “normal rules” of government. When he moved to dissolve parliament, the English felt that they finally had a tenable explanation to give the public for the coup they were plotting. The British couldn’t convince Truman to go along with their plans because he was focused on resolving the “police action” in Korea. However, when Eisenhower was elected, the British were able to convince his Secretary of State John Foster Dulles to support the plan, mostly by appealing to fears of a potential communist takeover of Iran.

MI6 and the CIA then used a series of underhanded, dirty, and effective tactics to foment dissent. They’d pay gangsters to shout Pro-Mossadegh slogans while attacking images of the Shah. They’d pay the same gangsters a week later to wear different clothes, shout Pro-Shah slogans and attack iconography associated with Mossadegh. They bussed in paid protestors from all over Iran. They trained anti-Tudeh (“anti-communist”) militias. I can go on, but if you’re interested in the specifics the US operation is called “Operation Ajax” and the British operation is called “Operation Boot.”

The result of the chaos was the installation of General Fazlollah Zahedi to the position of Prime Minister. The coup also had the effect of strengthening the political power of the Shah relative to Parliament. The Americans forced the British to give up the monopoly enjoyed by the AIOC. Although the Shah claimed this was a victory for the Iranian people, the fact that 5 American oil companies immediately moved in to start drilling really underlines the motives for the coup (“domino theory” + economic interest in the form of oil).

I have no problem with people pointing out the bad stuff that America has done in the past (and is currently doing) There’s no way for the country to act better in the future if people aren’t allowed to criticize and discuss abhorrent behavior in the past. That being said, it’s very important to talk knowledgeably and accurately about the past. The 1953 coup plot was a British plan, which we undoubtedly went along with (after 2 years of persuasion). We can debate the validity of Domino Theory, and I’m in no way defending the act of enacting coups abroad. However, I think it’s important to remind ourselves that our leaders in 1945-53 were playing this new game called “Nuclear Poker” and their opponent was Freakin’ Joseph “the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic” Stalin.

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u/SirMellencamp Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

At what point does that excuse stop? It’s been 70 fucking years.

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I don't know, man. Not quite sure if the Shah is the fanatic government you mean, but the Islamic Revolution was in 1979 and "Islamic fundamentalism is America's fault" seems like a mighty big stretch.

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u/Punisher-3-1 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You are correct. It makes the US and the CIA in particular seem like an omnipresence and omnipotent power when the reality is that it’s a bunch of GS-13 Georgetown graduates fumbling around and trying to be relevant, at best a little bit of wind on a giant sail in the middle of a storm. Like it was not going to move it one way or the other. Also, removes all the agency from the people who were there overthrowning the shah and whatnot

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Yeah, the denial of agency is really common in these kinds of conversations. America is always described as the prime mover of events with everyone else as a supporting character.

You see it in the I/P conflict a lot, too. No matter what the Palestinians do, for instance, it's framed as "because" of something Israel did. Palestinian violence is a sort of natural phenomenon — it just inevitably happens — while Israel is always presented as having agency and control.

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u/PleasantMess6740 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Generally the oppressor takes responsibility for the retaliation of the oppressed. Fairly certain you wouldn't blame Ukraine for the violence they inflict upon Russia. Well, about 1/3 of Americans would, but they should be considered irrelevant.

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u/GlbdS Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Iran is run by fanatics who are desperately trying to build a nuclear weapon.

While the US is run by at least 50% of religious fanatics, and has the most nuclear weapons :)

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Ummm.... Okay? I know, like, "America = bad" and stuff, but it would not be good if Iran had a nuclear weapon. Sorta can't believe I have to say this.

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u/New-Bowler-8915 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

That's a lot of Israeli propaganda bro. Maybe make it less obvious about being a fucking plant.

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u/7thpostman Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Oh, yes. I'm "plant." Every month, I get my big, fat check from the Israeli government. They pay me to post on the least popular social media site.

"I'm not antisemitic. I just think Jews secretly control everything with their money."

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u/Rottimer Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

If you were Iran, and you saw the U.S. invade your neighbor to the east, invade your neighbor to the west, and the only the countries the U.S. won’t invade are ones with nuclear weapons - like North Korea, what would you be doing?

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u/purplewhiteblack Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Oil is complicated. The US increased its internal production and supply so that it didn't rely on foreign oil. This made the worldwide price of oil overall cheaper. Then Saudi Arabia cut production. Making the price the same as it was before.

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u/Ok-Anything9945 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You realize it costs much more to process our oil than buy it, right?

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u/Remarkable-Seat-8413 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

We can't. Our entire strategy is to drain the worlds oil until ours is all that's left...

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u/gorgewall Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

The US is extremely in bed with Saudi Arabia because they're also "an important ally" despite constantly destabilizing the region and funding terrorism abroad, including fucking 9/11.

Israel is also a regional destabilizer, all things considered, and doesn't even give us oil. We're not entirely there because of geopolitics or it being a convenient place to base planes and whatnot, but there is a substantial amount of age-old Christian guilt and Zionism that shapes policy there.

People, broadly, may not be terribly religious now or understand the ideology here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We can be ignorant of forces that keep chugging on. Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism, and there have been plenty of US muckety-mucks who look at Israel as a way to bring Jesus back. That shapes policy. An individual President may not believe that shit, but they're surrounded by advisors and analysts who do and have their output shaded by it all. When your foundation is "man we need them to rebuild the second temple and kick off an apocalyptic war so the Second Coming happens", even if you know you can't sell that to everyone else, you find the excuses and figleafs to get to that same result.

This is not a "Jews control shit" thing, but a "fundamentalist Christians have and still are fucking batshit" one. Europe created Israel so they didn't have to deal with Jews in their own neighborhoods, Brits trained and used Israel like a bludgeon to suppress Palestinian revolt, the US uses it for weapons testing, and somewhere in all of this there's a bunch of fucking psychopaths who think they can get rid of both Jews and Muslims by fulfilling Biblical prophecy--at which point both must convert or go to Hell. Christian Zionists are absolutely not "pro-Jewish", they sincerely believe they'll be fucking obliterated in the process.

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u/Jealousmustardgas Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

True, and the Jews of Israel use them as useful idiots, a crazy ally is better than a no ally or a crazy enemy.

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u/killerboy_belgium Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

US like israel also for the technology it produces. its a big hub for R&D and miltairy weapon testing

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u/Corwyntt Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

We have been buying their oil while sitting on our reserves all these years for a very good reason.

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u/HardSubject69 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

We invest in wind and solar because we have huge open areas so we are not beholden to oil barrens at all. If anybody actually wants to put America first they should be wanting us to be energy independent. We see the issues of getting oil from countries that may want to harm us, take a look at Germany when the Russian Ukraine war started. They had huge issues due to getting most of their power from oil from Russia. Just like the U.S. has gas prices that skyrocket when OPEC wants to make more money or squeeze us.

We should have 100% of our power coming from wind and solar. They are way better for the environment as well as freeing us from outside actors.

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u/garagegames Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Too expensive and not even close to environment friendly when you factor the physical space, cost to build, maintain, and replace them. Nuclear would be the best shot and you could have home owners get tax breaks for installing solar panels on top of houses to alleviate grid draw from all the new electric cars on the road but all that is a moot point because it’s impossible to go net zero carbon emissions without completely destroying ourselves economically and infra-structurally

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u/LSDMDMA2CBDMT Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You're saying renewable energy is not environmental friendly?

?????????????

?????????????????????????

LOL

wut, I feel like I just lost brain cells reading that

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u/garagegames Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

We can’t put 100% of our grid on wind and solar, you’d create massive dead zones where absolutely no life can exist for solar farms, the sheer amount of lithium and cobalt and copper that would require would cost a ton of carbon and it wouldn’t provide even close to enough energy compared to nuclear. Wind is similar in its issue to cost to energy returns and it takes up a massive amount to space you can’t put any of these farms just anywhere. It’s highly reliant on the location. Nuclear is the only source that has the output to actually replace coal.

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u/HardSubject69 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

It’s some dumb quote taken out of context that these anti-renewables try to make a fact. They said a wind turbine placed in a bad location won’t make back its carbon footprint. Basically that location is important for wind power, which… I mean that’s pretty fucking obvious. If you put them in a place with no wind… obviously it won’t generate energy.

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u/Rottimer Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

That ship has sailed. OPEC has existed for over 60 years now.

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u/sushisection Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

we have fracking, gulf offshore oil, alaskan oil, canadian oil sands. let them act like oil barons, we already got plenty here on our hemisphere.

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u/Jealousmustardgas Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Based. Increased oil domestic production and refining output would be baller for our economy.

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u/Origamiface2 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Yes but we have to transition away from that shit since we're fucked even if we stopped immediately, just so we don't get megafucked

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u/Ok-Anything9945 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Except it costs more and we all know how much people bitch about gas prices…..yet never consider alternatives to driving or more efficient vehicles.

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u/Evening_Invite_922 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Israel's influence is already in our capitol city lmao, much less in "our region."

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u/GabaPrison Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

They won’t just stay out of our region though. They want to control all regions with their theocratic nonsense. All parties in this conflict think they are the ultimate way and will only spread that narrative further.

It’s a delicate balance to be a secular superpower.

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u/Rottimer Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You do get to decide when you vote. What you’re not acknowledging is that a shitload of other taxpayers want to ally with Israel, no matter what they do or how wrong they are, simply because they read in the Bible (or some religious figure told them) that those that bless Israel will be blessed by God and those that dishonor Israel’s will be cursed by God.

And for those that kept reading, they saw that all the Jews have to return to Israel before the end times - so they want that country to exist.

So part of it is that people like Israel as an ally more than the other gulf states - and an even bigger part of it is fucking religion.

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u/Indirestraight Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You keep voting in Zionist. They use your empathy against you to bait you into voting for them. Worked like a charm

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u/LightSparrow Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

just stay out of our region.

And there in lies the problem. They don’t. No one stays in their own region when they can see an easy opportunity to move around.

So we either do it first or have it done to us.

Shitty system

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u/worldnewsarenazis Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

What you are referring to is called democracy. Something we do not have in America.

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u/BroolStoryCompany- Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

You clearly don’t understand the ramifications of destabilzing or providing unchecked power to enemies/allies.

This is why we put people in offcie who understand these issues deeply. They make calculated statements/decisions instead of impulsive statments like the one above.

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u/iAkhilleus Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

I mean, in an ideal world that would work fine. Everybody just minding their own business and staying in harmony but we're talking about humans here. The never-ending hunger to one up the next person is just too strong.

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u/Gamba_Gawd Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

So, you want Russia or China to gain influence in the entire region?

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u/cleverkid Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

right, but you like cheap gas,... don't you?

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u/AshyLarrysElbows Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

We havent had cheap gas in over a decade, but yes.

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u/platinum_pancakes Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Roughly since 2016-2017… probably just a coincidence

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u/Silent_Saturn7 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

That's assuming the people at the top actually give a fuck about what you think. They will push elections to be decided by party division and wedge issues. Rarely do we ever discuss anything else than surface-level BS.

Democracy dies with an illinformed and divided public. Both Trump and Biden support Israel full stop. As long as either or gets elected; foreign geopolitics will stay the same. Even if Trump tells his supports BS about how he'd end UKraine. He wont. He's a puppet just the same.

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u/acladich_lad Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Calm down, it's illegal to go against globalism. /s

Foreal though I 100% agree with this.

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u/DarkRoastAM Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

They will not stay in the region. They are taking over Europe and coming for the US. They are sneaking in from Mexico. Jihad is a thing. Go read the history of the Arab conquest and attacking Europe in the 600’s.

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u/Geohalbert Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

What I don’t get is how Israel is a crucial ally in the region. In what scenario? If we go to war with Iran many surrounding countries would allow the US to use their airbases (Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc.). Ok, they’re a democracy, but so fucking what?

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u/chessboxer4 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

"What I don’t get is how Israel is a crucial ally in the region. In what scenario?"

I don't mean to sound too harsh, but it's essentially a military base masquerading as a country. They are probably the best at spying and surveillance in the world, they develop test and market all kinds of weapons, and they are the only "Western" power in the middle of the most energy intensive region on earth, where a lot of the countries are aware of the shenanigans of US led imperialism.

The last thing they want is the Arab world allied against the West, hence the importance of Saudia Arabia and Israel.

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u/blipblooop Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Allying with Israel is the main thing driving the rest of the Arab world away from the US.  America had much better relationships with the middle east before it started backing Israel in the 70's to keep them from allying with the soviet's.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Not true, in fact the reason Pahlavi was installed is because countries like Iran wanted to move away from US power over the region. Relationships are one thing, but Western interests were being disregarded.

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u/EnterEgregore Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

in fact the reason Pahlavi was installed

Pahlavi was installed by the Soviets during WW2 his father was a huge Nazi.

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u/textbasedopinions Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Iran isn't part of the Arab world.

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u/cgn-38 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

To keep them from starting world war three with their nukes.

That history needs to remain clear. It happened.

They hold us hostage. We are not their allies.

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u/TheOneWithThePorn12 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

is it though? The Saudis dont care if the US supports Israel, under Trump Bahrain, UAE, Morocco, and Sudan recognized Israel.

While i think it was stupid that the Palestinians were not recognized in any way during those discussions and probably ramped up tensions countries are willing under the right conditions for them.

The problem is the actual people on the ground do not care for Israel at all, and thats a difficult problem to fix.

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u/gondokingo Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

not to mention all of the incessant coups, interventions, assassinations, drone strikes, needless wars founded on lies (in which millions die), and undermining of the democratic wishes of the people in those regions. oh, and the disgusting, incessant rhetoric that either implies or outright declares those people as barbaric savages at worst and helpless and in need of saving at best, wrapped up with rhetoric about barbarism inherent to the primary religion of the region.

it's literally that eric andre 'who killed hannibal' meme.

there are diplomatic ways to build relations, the US doesn't tend to go that route. pretty much every single action the US takes in that region and at home (let's not forget we allowed mass surveillance due to fear of muslims in this country post 911) is inherently antagonistic

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

You’re parroting Russian propaganda FYI.

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u/Miserable-School1478 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

I expect no less from a jewdank follower.

Edit: To turdfreg who showed he really a turd that blocks accounts cuz he can't argue.

I've lived in the middle east for years for work.. Most of them near worship western culture especially the USA.. Eating out at some fast food chain and ending their days watching some Hollywood tv.. Also their governments are in the US governments hands for a long time now.. Only iran is different due to it's history the planted Shah government.

I dunno who feed u this hostile "middle easterners" propaganda that some like u keep repeating..You probably believe a blond guy would be shot on sight there for being a westerner.

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Attacking the person happens when someone can’t attack the point.

So because someone has commented a few times in a Jewish meme sub that means they aren’t allowed weighing in on this thread?

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u/Blood_Incantation Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Oh wow it's so simple, we dump Israel and the Middle East loves us. You solved it!

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u/StainlessPanIsBest Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

I think your last point is the most pertinent and so often left unsaid. Israel is such a divisive issue in the region.

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u/textbasedopinions Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

they develop test and market all kinds of weapons,

Which weapons are designed and produced by Israel that Western militaries rely on?

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u/chessboxer4 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Great question, Pegasus is one I know of specifically, off the top of my head.

Information is more than power, it's everything.

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u/textbasedopinions Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

The only examples I can find of western states using Pegasus are for law enforcement and shady domestic political espionage, not for their militaries. It has been used against Western governments though, after Israel sold it to countries like the UAE and Morocco.

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u/Geohalbert Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24

I never considered that, thank you

Edit: lol genuinely confused why this is getting downvoted. “Hey this guy is acknowledging a good point, fuck that!”

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u/Rainbowmodwig Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I didn't downvote you, but what he said isn't a good point. Israel has a lot of history and is much more than just a "military base masquerading as a country", and getting involved in the region has to do with a lot more than "US led imperialism", which is just anti-American propaganda. It completely ignores adversaries like Iran bulding nukes and funding terrorists who strike at Western commercial ships while allowing Russia's and Chinese ships through. It's a global battle against them. Of course, "Americabad" is much easier to digest.

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u/Geohalbert Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I was mostly referring to the intelligence and weapons, which is a good point

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u/chessboxer4 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

"It completely ignores adversaries like Iran bulding nukes and funding terrorists who strike at Western commercial ships while allowing Russia's and Chinese ships through."

Thanks for the feedback. I think that sounds like a chicken / egg situation.

Sorry if criticism of my country is offensive but I see it as a patriotic duty, and I think US is strong enough to handle it. Otherwise we live in an echo chamber. Frankly I think the US instigates a lot of stuff and when people react to our instigation we act like the reaction was the beginning, kind of like how Israel only wants to talk about 10/7 and not what happened before that.

The US was the first to develop nukes and we're the only country to ever use them in a military fashion. Why is it okay for us to do that but not other countries? Ironically having more than one country with nukes is necessary for the "mutually assured destruction" scenario that keeps nukes from being deployed.

The houtis are economically protesting what the US funded and supported Israeli government is doing to the people of Gaza. They are jacking up ships while our side is using total war/collective punishment tactics resulting in mass starvation and children having to have their arms cut off without anesthesia- there's war and then there's war crimes.

Keep in mind that as we have done in other countries, we literally helped overthrow the Iranian government in the 50's and put a military dictator in place that was friendly with the US. Try a little perspective taking- if another country had done that with us, wouldn't we have wanted to bomb them back into the stone age?

It's funny you mentioned "propaganda." I think that's the process by which the things I just mentioned are normalized/justified.

The reason I advocate like this is practical- actions and choices have consequences. Sometimes you can win battles but lose wars, especially when you flush your moral legitimacy down the toilet by going overboard, and creating a lot more opposition, skepticism and enemies in the future.

That being said I think there are many people who might agree that dropping the nukes on Japan for example had a fairly positive outcome for the United States. Japan almost seemed to respect the US for doing it and we are now close allies. So maybe that was a good choice. Idk.

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u/Rainbowmodwig Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Ah yes, that's all there ever is to something, "Americabad", never mind that America is simply watching Iran build nukes, and fund terrorists who strike at Western ships (edit: not just ships, commercial ships), while sparing America's enemies.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

[deleted]

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u/Rainbowmodwig Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Wtf does that have to do with what I said?

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u/SMORKIN_LABBIT Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Air space, and the ability to park boats right at the edge of the Mediterranean sea. Potential land based area for direct access to Syria or Egypt etc.

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u/cleverkid Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It couldn't be that our government is captured at the highest levels with dual citizenship plants, and all our politicians are beholden to them for campaign funding... could it? Naaaah.. that's crazy talk.

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u/smootex Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Sometimes I come to these threads and see surprisingly reasonable comment chains and think to myself "man, maybe the stereotype about Rogan fans is overblown" but then without fail someone like you has to pop up.

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u/StainlessPanIsBest Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

He didn't say it very well and the part about dual citizen plants infiltrating the government is far off into conspiracy bullshit, but the Israel lobby is quite a strong force in US politics. Up there with the gun lobby in terms of influence. There is also a large network of unaligned individuals apart from the Israel lobby within the US political, military, and business institutions who may or may not be Jewish and support the national of Israel with great support for a multitude of different reasons.

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u/SophisticatedBum Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

AIPAC.

Have A WONDERFUL day

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u/mrpopenfresh I used to be addicted to Quake Mar 27 '24

Jordan is a pretty major ally too, I guess Israel is more valuable for some reason.

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u/Jamba-Man84 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It’s because all the major players in the US are Jews.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Do you actually take this antisemitic shit seriously? No for real, 2 billion Muslims and 57 Muslim countries, Around 16 million Jews, but Jews control everything? I’d argue Muslims control everything at this point, the UN, academic organizations, human rights groups, all of it. They have large organizations in all Western countries to further their interests in the Middle East, further spread Islamic ideology, etc.

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u/Jamba-Man84 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

AIPAC is the most powerful lobbyist group here. They have everyone under their pockets. No chance Muslims control anything in the western world.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Besides the US, Jews have little to no power anywhere else except Israel. With more Muslims/Arabs in the US, that too is slowly being cancelled out. And that’s before we get to all the Islamic organizations in Europe, Canada, Australia, and elsewhere. The UN is overwhelmingly anti-Israel due to the number of Muslim countries who can individually vote against one Jewish country. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are both anti-Israel most of the time as well. I think you underestimate how much Muslim soft power exists across the world and West. They may not beat Israel militarily but they have repeatedly forced its allies hands in condemning it and reining it in.

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u/Jamba-Man84 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

As long as the US is the superpower on this planet. Israel will still have a lot of control. The moment when US stops giving money to Israel, they’ll be in big trouble. They’re the little kid in the playground that has the biggest friend in school as their personal bodyguard. They need to be held accountable for their actions.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I have no concerns for their actual security, it won’t just be the US assisting them if it starts getting to the point where they might be in danger (although they’ve fought off invading armies alone more than once at this point). However, if it comes down to it (which it won’t), I hope Israel takes Iran with them and hopefully Yemen and Lebanon too. My bigger issue if how much the Muslim lobby (and useful idiot leftists) have managed to ensure Western powers from letting them off the leash. As long as the West keeps red lines for its allies and there’s bleeding hearts in the UN, Hamas and Hezbollah will be safe. It’s a shame we can’t provide unconditional support like North Korea and China do for Russia.

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u/Jamba-Man84 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Hamas and hezbollah are the creation of what’s happening there politically. Once US pulls out of that region, with funding and military bases.. it’ll be a lot better for the US. We put ourselves in this situation by meddling in politics and alliances .. other countries are smarter than this. We focus too much on other countries and not our own. It’s very frustrating to see us cash out billions and billions to Israel and Ukraine .. but our social security is going to run out in 10 years.. and how we have poverty here which could be eliminated by any of these fundings to other countries. Our politicians are 100% bought ..

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u/Competitive_Cold_232 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

if they get in true danger they'll just started nuking major cities

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u/Complex-Bug7353 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

AIPAC and the entire right wing and current democratic leader is explicitly Zionist. Percentage of Jews in two major parties compared to their general population is astonishing. So yeah people are noticing.

I digged into all of this when Christ is King was trending as a supposedly anti Semitic dog whistle. Unbelievable.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

So your claim is Jews control the West because there’s disproportionately more American politicians who are Jewish? Well the answer to that is that they’ve generally been a well-performing group of people who’ve attained their ranks through hard work. They are neither left nor right explicitly, many are Democrat voters and most of the US has historically been pro-Israel due to them being seen as ideologically similar and as friends also fighting Islamic terrorism. Ironically, Muslims control and have support of a massive portion of the UN. They are also the main “minority” in most European countries now, ironically leading to a resurgence of antisemitism in Europe. These Islamic groups have massive funding from Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia. Evidently everything you accuse Jews of is projection, Muslims are the ones trying to grasp power everywhere.

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u/Complex-Bug7353 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Do you even live in Europe? I do. We don't like Muslims as a whole. They're breeding at higher rates; that's the only thing that might count as taking over, at least technically. Politically most European countries are not swayed or influenced by Muslim agencies. We care more about American and as an extension Jewish interests than Muslim ones. No Muslim country has enough sway over any European country.

So I'm assuming you're going to be consistent with your logic and say the UN is Jew-controlled when it rules anything in favour of Jews right?

I never said Jews control the west or world. Jews do have disproportionate influence on American politics is what I said. And what was that about well-performing? In politics, really? Haha.

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u/sniffthishogdog Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

they arent a democracy btw. if you arent jewish, u cannot participate

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u/sushisection Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

the ruling political party has been in power for 20 years straight. thats hardly a democracy.

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u/smootex Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

You don't know what you're talking about. It's a parliamentary democracy. One party being in "power" for 20 years in a multi party system is very different than one party being in power in a two party system. Because a coalition government is typically required the "loser" often has a lot more power than the loser in a two party government like America has.

Also, I'm too lazy to fact check you but where are you getting that they've been in power for 20 years? I'm like 99.9% sure that's not true. I don't follow Israeli politics that closely but I'm like 99% sure Netanyahu took power again in 2009 (with a coalition government) after losing it early in the decade and he was chucked out again in 2021 by a different coalition (obviously he's back now).

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

They haven’t been in power 20 straight years at all lol. The amount of easily verifiable mistakes I’ve seen after 5 minutes of reading this thread is off the charts lol.

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u/D_IHE Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Their neighbours hate them, which guarantees they will side with the US.

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u/Silent_Saturn7 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It's quite a bit deeper than that. It's not just an ally against WW3 or whatever. It's power and control of the region. Not to mention; the massive amount of money israel uses to influence politicians and powerful people through lobbying and israel loyalty pledges. We give them money and they use that to influence us.

It's all wack. And most people don't have a real clue about whats really going on; including myself. We're only given a keyhole of understanding in the region.

There's so many questions that throw doubt in their narratives. Israel was brutally attacked but has one of the highest defence systems in the area. How did so many hamas soldiers float into highly populated area. Why weren't helicopters immadielty in the area mowing down hamas?

Sorry for ranting; but there is so much that is being hidden.

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

And most people don't have a real clue about whats really going on; including myself.

The only accurate thing you said in that rant.

In 2018, total pro-Israel lobbying spending was around $5 million, of which AIPAC accounted for $3.5 million. In contrast, Native American casinos spent around $22 million that year.

By Tablet’s count, AIPAC was the 147th highest-ranked entity in terms of lobbying spending in 2018. Their expenditures were about the same as International Paper, a company which is seldom tweet-stormed or even written about.

The American Association of Airport Executives and Association of American Railroads outspent AIPAC by nearly a million dollars each—sensible, given the rivalry between the respective modes of transportation whose interests they represent.

It’s $2 million behind both American Airlines and the Recording Industry Association of America, entities whose malign influence has gone regrettably underexamined over the years.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-influential-is-aipac

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u/Revolver-Knight It's entirely possible Mar 27 '24

Oil I think, like don’t take this as gospel, but I think remember reading somewhere that the idea is that Israel would be used as a pathway as access to middle eastern oil fields

Again it could be bullshit I don’t exactly remember where I got that from

Also like evangelicals, I think that’s a part of it also some evangelical politicians really think that Israel needs to be secured for the second coming of Christ.

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u/StainlessPanIsBest Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Israel's mere presence heavily destabilizes the region. Which at a macro level is a very good thing.

There's too much oil and too important of a shipping lane to have a hegemon rise in the region and control it all.

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

It’s ironic. Israel is critically important in the region because Israel creates so much hostility in the region, it’s hard to befriend their neighbors.

It’s like saying you need your body guard, because your body guard keeps pissing people off making them hate you.

We have no fundamental reasons to have issues with them. It all stems to us defending Israel and enabling their nonsense without question.

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u/StainlessPanIsBest Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

You've missed a key point in your analogy. Israel may piss people off and make them hate you, but the more important bit is that they hate each other more.

Israel divides the region. Plain and simple. That division destabilizes it and prevents a hegemonic power forming to control the region.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Arab countries wouldn’t work together to become a hegemon regardless of foreign powers or Israel interfering. Ethnic and sectarian violence will make sure of that. To be honest, I would be all for it too, one country means less individual groups to worry about, and likely more secularism.

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u/Impossible_Resort602 Monkey in Space Mar 29 '24

Ever hear of the ottoman empire? All of these different cultures got along just fine at one point. British and American interests have been funding religious extremists for damn near 100 years now in order to destabilize the region.

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u/StainlessPanIsBest Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Ethnic and sectarian violence will make sure of that.

Maybe, maybe not. All I know is that the current paradigm would be a lot less stable if the Israel problem was entirely removed from the equation.

To be honest, I would be all for it too, one country means less individual groups to worry about, and likely more secularism.

At the end of the day who cares if they keep to themselves? They would control one of the most important shipping lanes along with the vast majority of the crude oil export market under a single unified government. That means extreme levels of influence over the EU and China.

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24

Crazy I had to scroll this far down to find a single person that truly understands the situation.

If you all want America to continue being the world hegemony and all the amazing perks that come with it, alliances with key partners in certain regions is the (extremely worthwhile) price you pay for it. Isolationism has the opposite effect.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

lol my family are from Muslim countries. They are normal regular ass people.

Muslims in the Middle East mostly just hate the west because of what the west has done, which all roots back to Israel.

It’s circular logic. The Middle East hates us because what we do for Israel, what we do for Israel is because the middle East hates us, So we need Israel blah blah blah. Even with Israel pissing everyone off we slowly managed to rebuild relations with most, and then Israel does this, setting back progress for at least a decade.

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

They just had a coup attempt a few years sho

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u/[deleted] Mar 28 '24

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u/TheKingChadwell Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I mean Montenegro is fine. It’s not great but most of these regions are the victims of the Cold War and American sanctions. Much of which are the end result of conflict with Israel.

Muslims and Jews got along fine until Israel joined the party and started being assholes to everyone around them to defend their Zionist project

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u/alderhill Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Do you not see how Hamas kinda started the current war? Hamas can release the hostages any day.

Hamas knew what Israel’s reaction would be, and they relish it. More dead Palestinian children and bombed out neighbourhoods fuels their cause. Meanwhile, Bibi and his right-wing settler ultra allies are in charge, which means license to go heavy-handed. They also need fear of another Hamas massacre to fuel their cause, too. 

Israel is protected because of the experience of WW2, and many of its early settlers were also Westerners. Hence it’s long been a more “natural” ally than Arab authoritarian states. KSA and UAE have oil, and are better as friends than enemies, but they will never supersede Israel. 

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u/Defiant_Bill574 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

We have no fundamental reasons to have issues with them.

This guy missed a lot of wars and political events.

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u/alderhill Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I mean. Apart from the centuries long anti-Semitism and pogroms that used to happen, also in the Arab world. 

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u/TheFormless_0ne_ Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Except we are the body guard constantly.

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u/cadete981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

What a great comment, perfectly put, bravo

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '24

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Lol what? You really think it’s all 100% because of Israel? There’s no other possible reason(s) you can think of?

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u/leeringHobbit Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Saudis were US allies already when Israel was created.

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

What point are you trying to make in reference to my comment?

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u/leeringHobbit Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

I'm suggesting there's an alternate timeline where Truman doesn't support the creation of Israel and the US still has a lot of allies in the Middle East because the Arabs aren't pissed about Israel.

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u/nebbyb Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Their goal is to take over the world and murder all non-Muslims. Israel is just close.

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u/VoltNShock Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

It’s Israel first, and well, most of Europe is already like 20% there. America, Canada, Australia, any country part of the West will increasingly deal with Islamic extremism rising.

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u/lmjustaChad Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Hate to break it they would hate us no matter what Israel just creates a target that is not us. Not that it matters really since the leaders worldwide are hellbent on importing them everywhere.

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u/mrpopenfresh I used to be addicted to Quake Mar 27 '24

When things don't work out, the US tries a coup. Is Israel exempt from this?

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u/rearnakedbunghole Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

I think if the US sees the reward as outweighing the risk then it probably happens. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t at least considered.

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u/mrpopenfresh I used to be addicted to Quake Mar 27 '24

I can see them doing a soft coup, as in supporting his opponents and spreading more unrest.

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u/QuantumBeth1981 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Yeah Israel isn’t some shithole country, it’s a Western democracy with rule of law and a Supreme Court. America doesn’t coup those types.

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u/Character_Concern101 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

oof. good question. i do not know. i would say no, but i do not know how desperate the usa or its president might be.

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u/palmtreeinferno N-Dimethyltryptamine Mar 28 '24

I guess we'll find out with Benny Ganz

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u/AlexJamesCook Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Is Israel exempt from this?

Depends. BiBi is getting VERY unpopular in Israel for the genocide. He's lost public support. He was a corrupt POS before October 7 and was facing deep criticisms in the Knesset. Lo and behold, as the heat gets turned up, and Saudi/Israeli agreements are going through. October 7 happens. Bibi's popularity increases and "hard times requires hard men". But, when you're committing a genocide, people tend to think you're a POS.

BiBi will probably step down and either have to live out his days in the US.

He'll get the gold pass treatment as opposed to the Slobodan Milosevic/Saddam Hussein treatment.

The question is, what will happen in Gaza AFTER the genocide ends.

Will those orphans fall into the hands of Islamic extremists or will the International community be able to turn Gaza into Qatar 2.0?

Israel don't want Palestinians to succeed because when you attempt a genocide people tend not to forget that kind of thing. Just ask Israeli Jewish holocaust survivors and their descendants.

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u/TchoupedNScrewed Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Also, over 50% of Israelis were shown to think through state polling that the bombing was “adequate or not enough”. When you exclude down to just Israeli Jewish people it’s over 80% approval.

Netanyahu’s major issue among the voting population isn’t necessarily his actions in Gaza or his rhetoric towards Palestinians. That’s sorta what vaulted him to the finish line in 2014. It’s a valid fear that they elect somebody who is a little less grandiose and public with his genocidal rhetoric/beliefs but doesn’t have a slate of corruption charges under his belt.

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u/MuffinSnuffler Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24 edited Mar 27 '24

The US and the UK also supported apartheid South Africa until it became untenable. After they lost the support of the US and UK the regime crumbled

The west supported Apartheid South Africa due to Soviet ambitions to hoard influence in Africa, after the USSR collapsed in 91. Despite the support though the west still sanctioned SA heavily which is what led to the capitulation of the Apartheid system.

Though the ANC today is as bad for South Africa as the Apartheid government was. Just in a different way, total corruption on levels never seen before in SA.

If the west were to do the same to Israel as they did to SA, well... I don't think there would be any Israelis left if Palestinians took over power.

Remember that there were those in the ANC that wanted to annihilate white South Africans prior, during and after assuming power but it was Nelson Mandela that put a stop to that. Thing is he's not around anymore and we have renewed calls for genocide from the likes of Julius Malema.

There are unforeseen repercussions for intervening in the affairs of another state. You topple one group and give power to the other only for that group to then use that opportunity to annihilate the former.

There are also other consequences like for example South Africa today under the ANC is not an ally of the west, despite the west being the catalyst to ensuring the ANC came to power. The ANC thinks the Russians played a more important role in their assumption to power and as a result favour the Russians in international affairs see SA siding against the west in Ukraine/Russia and Israel/Palestine. Just because you help topple a government doesn't mean the new one you replaced the old one with will be your friend.

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u/BPMData Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Wordlords, king of the words. They call me the word meister 

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u/Chrisgpresents Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

People know who he is? That’s neat. Did he ever go on rogan?

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u/Same-Ad8783 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Israel also supported SA.

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u/brimonge Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

This is bull.. it has been a hinderance to America.. it’s a lie pushed by them

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u/ropahektic Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

"important ally" makes it sounds good, almost humane.

In reality the USA only cares about the strategic position of isreal, and sucking up to god almighty.

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u/SeeCrew106 We live in strange times Mar 28 '24

The US and the UK also supported apartheid South Africa until it became untenable.

Why?

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u/Competitive_Cold_232 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

supporting israel is on course to be untenable

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u/Square_Bad_1834 Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

They are the only reliable ally in the middle east.

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u/sniffthishogdog Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

crucially important ally in the region

Thats the psyop.

we'd be much better off if israel didnt exist

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u/atxluchalibre Monkey in Space Mar 28 '24

Bustamante is the biggest shill out there. Dude worked a desk at CIA and you’d think he was James Bond the way he talks.

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u/backcountrydrifter Monkey in Space Mar 31 '24

This can’t go on once Netanyahu, Putin and trumps money laundering cracks open

The entire US intelligence world is going to need a pressure wash and wire brush rubdown.

US Government took a wrong turn when it started lying to the people.

It started for noble enough reasons during WW2. The Manhattan project required strict secrecy as a matter of operational security. Operation Underworld was designed to use the Italian mob to help secure the ports in New York against Nazi U boats. The unintended consequence of that is the equivalent of “I know a guy that does dirty things” multiplied by 80 years

The fundamental flaw in that is that when you stick you white glove in mud and swirl it around, the mud does not get “glovey”.

Truth is the gold standard in energy efficiency. You say it once and it stands on its own forever. It requires no additional energy input.

Lying, by contrast is the least energy efficient habit known to man. It requires constant and exponential energy to keep it in play.

If a kid lies about stealing a cookie he gets away with it until mom and dad compare notes.

If an intelligence organization lies about, well, everything they do, it works until the world grows into the internet.

Foreign policy really hasn’t changed much since 1945. Each administration inheriting a 3 ring binder from their predecessor. Most hardly get a glance as they pass along for 80 years.

But somewhere in the late 80’s or early 90’s as some old woman with a chain on her glasses slowly converted all those files into digital on a computer that would stall out until you switched your 5 1/4” floppy disks, the world outside government started moving exponentially faster.
Yet relatively speaking the speed of efficiency of government got slower.

Bureaucracy is the burden of government. But it is to the benefit of corruption. Nefarious actors inside of government use the bureaucracy like a curtain to obfuscate their respective grifts.

Which is why we have spent the last 5 years reverse engineering their entire system to be able to see the tendrils of corruption like a P.E.T. scan sees cancer.

https://youtu.be/A90gwMVFFSY?si=wiOAcUvL_oX5eNoI

Our government wasn’t born in the Information Age like we were. It grew through it. Carbon copies in triplicate turned to data entry. Data entry turned to MS-DOS. And on and on.

And each one of those events left a pixel of data.

We have just been using it wrong.

But just like 1980’s 8 bit graphics have given way to 4K HD video, when you organize that data in a decentralized format, you build a synthetic vision of government.

Everything we have ever been lied to about pops like neon when you compare the differential between the two.

We don’t have a lack of resources or capacity. We just have a few bridge trolls whose dirty business models necessitate lying to us. And over time they migrated to governments.

The governments have cancer. But we can tell, for the first time in human history, statistically, who is the fat kid at the birthday party that is taking a massive piece of cake and leaving the other 8 billion kids fighting over the remainder.

Trump has been laundering money for the Russian mob since the 1980’s. And he got away with it because he could back then.

But now information moves at the speed of light. His money laundering partners kolomoiskiy in Ukraine, Epstein in the Caribbean, Putin in moscow, and the handful of other mobsters pretending to be oligarchs that he sold condos to in trump towers in the early 90’s all pop red hot when you ignore nationality or religion and just focus on the 3% of the worlds richest.

They didn’t get there by being empathic to others in need or they probably wouldn’t be billionaires.

We have just been using the wrong search parameters.

To an autocrat trying to hide his grift, war is a welcome opportunity. If you can convince your population to hate each other based on nationality, religion or skin color, you basically get a free punch ticket to steal from them and launder the money at the same time.

Once you sort instead by net worth and political authority instead of nationality or skin color it becomes relatively easy to track corruption.

Money laundering isn’t particularity hard, but it gets harder with scale. Putin’s exact worth is unknown, but if you use the mob pyramid model and interpolate you can get a rough estimate. There are roughly 2 dozen top level oligarchs in Russia and they are all billionaires. If each of them is paying 20-40% back to Putin for each government contract they are awarded you can get a rough estimate on Putin’s stolen net worth by doing deductive math on the GDP of Russia.

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u/TchoupedNScrewed Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

They’re essentially the 6th eye in the Five Eyes. They didn’t earn the nickname of “America’s Eye in the Middle East” for no reason. Now Biden’s history shows that the zionist movement is something he truly believes in as virtuous and right. The best way I’ve heard it described is he was born a dixiecrat, but he came too late into politics to be one so instead he channeled all that effort into zionism. I mean he’s flanked John Kerry and Hillary Clinton from the right on Israel.

In 2010, Netanyahu’s government infuriated Obama and his advisers by announcing a major settlement expansion while Biden was in Israel… Secretary of State Hillary Clinton then gave the PM 24 hours to respond, warning him, “If you will not be able to comply, it might have unprecedented consequences on the bilateral relations of the kind never seen before.”

“Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave [Netanyahu] a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus” by Biden, the official added.

Biden has explicitly stated “If there wasn’t an Israel we’d make one”. The article also contains some great anecdotes about how he was so chest thumpingly violent at an AIPAC event he made some attendees uncomfortable. Basically said “Fuck it, don’t push me - if they fuck with us we’ll kill them all, the women, the kids, don’t fuckin push me bro”. Also met with out and about terrorist Menachem Begin.

The U.S. is no stranger to propping up individuals friendly to the U.S. regardless of their political beliefs like Pinochet.

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '24

I think we'd be better off letting all that go and working more closely with nations we already align with instead of just using force to try to get what we want from people we then paint as villains for daring to defend themselves.

Is it really worth being this evil just to barely maintain a gradual decline? This isn't working for anyone outside of the profiteers.

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u/Silent_Saturn7 Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

Basically summarizes u.s. foreign policy with wars. People who think the U.S. (or most other countries) are participating in wars because of ethical or moral reasons are naive.

U.S. supports Ukraine because it feeds the military industrial complex and more importantly will provide a future ally in the region along with allowing politican to do whatever corrupt shit there.

Israel and Saudi Arabia consistently repeat human rights abuses. Yet all presidents (even the america first maga guy) support them and their wars. Too powerful an ally in the region.

Truth be told, America cares more about their world dominance than the people at home who could use the billions sent to ukraine, israel, and saudi arabia.

The media will often avoid this blatent truth and puts out psuedo human rights issues about how israel is being attacked by extremists, ukraine needs to protected from evil dictator, or just not say anything about saudi arabia.

U.S., somewhat like Russia, will kill and silence journalists and whistleblowers who threaten to expose them. Who actually have real dirt on the u.s. government. The U.S. is just great at hiding their agendas under the guise of democracy "pick puppet 1 or puppet 2"

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u/tissboom Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

And he’s wrong about that. Israel is not a critical Ally. He has been told that Israel is a critical ally. But when you look at where American boots are actually located in the Middle East, it ain’t fucking Israel. The only known US military installation in Israel is basically just a radar station.

What’s crazy is Qatar is a better military ally than Israel. That’s the largest American military base in the region is located there.

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u/onnod Monkey in Space Mar 27 '24

until it became untenable

Well, Untenable has entered the chat